Crimp vs. Palomar Knot TEST RESULTS
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Thread: Crimp vs. Palomar Knot TEST RESULTS

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    Smile Crimp vs. Palomar Knot TEST RESULTS

    I conducted multiple tests over the past few days regarding one of the threads I started this week on how to attach terminal tackle (Ball Bearing Coastlock) to the main line on trolling setups.

    The purpose of the tests were not to test line pound strength, but to determine which connection, if any, would fail under steady pulling pressure.

    TEST #1:
    30 lb. Monofilament
    Palomar Knot - Failed at the knot on each of the 3 tests
    Crimped Connection - Did NOT fail at crimp connection, but line did break approximately 2 feet away from crimp on first test, and line broke at my glove the other two times.

    TEST #2:
    50 lb. Monofilament
    Palomar Knot - Failed at the knot on each of the 3 tests
    Crimped Connection - Did NOT fail at crimp, but on one test the line broke approximately 8 inches above crimp, and the other two tests the line did not break.

    TEST #3:
    80 lb. Monofilament
    Palomar Knot - Failed at the knot on each of the 3 tests
    Crimped Connection - Did Not fail at the crimp, but one test the line broke a few inches away from my glove and the other two tests the line did not break.

    *All of the connections were made to a 165 lb. Ball Bearing Coastlock, which was attached to a nail held in a bench vise.

    *I used a pair of heavy leather gloves and applied steady pressure on the line until a connection failed, the line broke, or what I felt was the full stretch of the mono was achieved. The length of line used was approximately 3 feet in length measured from the connection to my hand.

    *All knotted connections were lubricated and pulled, firmly seating the knot to the ring on the swivel prior to the tests.

    *The crimped connections were made using the recommended crimp size and slightly melting the tag end of the line creating a ball on the end, prior to pulling the slack out of the loop and crimping with a hand swagger.

    CONCLUSION: Although not performed under laboratory standards, it is apparent that the crimped connections proved to be superior to the knotted connections.

    Regards,

    Joe
    Last edited by jmitchell; 03-25-2012 at 09:51 AM.

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    Good job Jim...Should settle some questions.....I for one have always crimped my leaders.. only question on crimps is are there any advantages of using double barrel sleeves over single barrel sleeves ? or is it just preference.. I realize aluminum and copper are used for different leader materials..I usually use single barrel but am always concerned of damaging the line by crimping to hard...with that being said last year we did not have one crimp fail us and I used single barrel crimps exclusively..However, we did lose 350 yards of Mono because a Blue Marlin spooled us but on the good side the crimp didn't fail...lol

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    Interesting I was going to do something similar, thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuna55 View Post
    Good job Jim...Should settle some questions.....I for one have always crimped my leaders.. only question on crimps is are there any advantages of using double barrel sleeves over single barrel sleeves ? or is it just preference.. I realize aluminum and copper are used for different leader materials..I usually use single barrel but am always concerned of damaging the line by crimping to hard...with that being said last year we did not have one crimp fail us and I used single barrel crimps exclusively..However, we did lose 350 yards of Mono because a Blue Marlin spooled us but on the good side the crimp didn't fail...lol
    Good point "Tuna"....I should have specified that I used single aluminum sleeves. Nice job on hooking the Blue Marlin...good to hear the crimp didn't fail!

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    you were able to break 80 lb mono with your hands?

    are you 100% sure your polomar knots were not cris-crossed? i never had a polomar fail that was tied correctly.

    i only crimp above 100 lb test as i feel that a properly tied knot is more effective with less margin of error than a crimp, maybe i am wrong

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    Yes Jay....it broke and I almost fell right on my a**! LOL I made extra sure the lines were laying flat on the ring before snugging them up and pulling the knot tight, making sure the tag end and main line were even during the tightening process. The crimps made a believer out of me. I never liked crimping anything less than 130 lb., which is what I use to rig my small spreader bars, chains, and feathers, but.........

    last year while live-lining bunker in the spring for bass, I was hand-tying all of my snag and drop rigs for 60 lb. fluoro. During the blitzes our rigs were getting chewed up by blues and the rigs were also being chaffed by the bigger bass. When my hands were getting wet they were getting torn up from tying rigs as we ran out of oure pre-made ones while on the boat. That night when I got home I opened up my rigging kit and crimped a few of the 60 lb. fluoro snag and drop rigs and used them the following morning with excellent results! No crimp failures at all! I have never looked back! Just wanted to re-assure myself that this may be the way to go for my offshore trolling set ups when I attach the main line to the ball bearing coastlock. In case I have a line break I will make up a small rigging kit to keep on the boat this year. The kit will contain the swagger, crimps for 60 lb and 80 lb mono, and pre-cut pieces of chafe gear to put on the main line before I crimp it to the coastlock.
    Last edited by jmitchell; 03-24-2012 at 03:03 PM.
    Regards,

    Joe

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    Very cool of you to post this info. Thank you. As I said in your other thread, I dont trust knots after having one fail on us. Everybody has their own thing they believe in, but laying the test results out leaves no argument. The smallest nick' can cause a break anywhere in the line, but its not as bad as wondering if you messed up or the knot messed up. If nothing else we can blame the knot now.

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    have to second what Jay said... i have failed to see a Palomar fail unless tied improperly.... Now we wil all have to take that you tied it correctly but could you elaborate of how it failed??? did the line break at the knot or did the knot pull out?? ie slip out...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gumdoc View Post
    have to second what Jay said... i have failed to see a Palomar fail unless tied improperly.... Now we wil all have to take that you tied it correctly but could you elaborate of how it failed??? did the line break at the knot or did the knot pull out?? ie slip out...

    You have to remember that the line "should" fail at the knot, even when perfectly tied. The knot creates a stress concentrator in the line, usually from the tight radii the mono makes within the knot, which is then the weakest link in the mono. The crimps do not place the same stress in the line, and instead are splitting the tension in half after the crimp, making the line above the crimp the weak link. Also, keep in mind that we are talking about testing to failure, not testing that the connection holds under the drag levels that might be encountered while fighting a fish. In those situations it is much more likely that the line may be damaged from contact with teeth, other parts of the fish, or the boat, which actually creates a stress concentrator at that location, possibly weakening the line more than the stress concentrator created by knotting the line at your terminal tackle. Had the line not been damaged, and had enough drag been applied, the knot would be the most likely place for the line to break.
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    FWIW at the canyon runner seminar I showed the crew the Miller Knot. Google "miller knot long range" It's a knot that I learned on the Royal Star while fishing out west. On the knot tester, the 50lb mono broke between 70 and 75.5lbs and the knot didn't fail. I crimp everything over 100lb, but this has become my "goto knot" for under 100lb

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    Maybe a scale in the equation somewhere for the next test? Did the palomar break above the line test strength, or did it weaken the line? Did the palomar break at the same stress level that the line broke with the crimp?


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    Quote Originally Posted by gumdoc View Post
    have to second what Jay said... i have failed to see a Palomar fail unless tied improperly.... Now we wil all have to take that you tied it correctly but could you elaborate of how it failed??? did the line break at the knot or did the knot pull out?? ie slip out...
    The first photo is of the palomar knot.... http://jjsfishingreports.webs.com/ap...toid=152208269 It is difficult to see, but I left approximately 1/4" of a tag end on the knot


    The second photo shows where the line broke on both ocassions (these are two seperate main lines depicting the end of the line where it broke) Its obvious that both times the lines did not unravel, but broke as the knot tightened down on itself. Hope this clarifies things. http://jjsfishingreports.webs.com/ap...toid=152208270

    *It should be noted I used 30 lb. Mono in the above photos.
    Last edited by jmitchell; 03-24-2012 at 06:59 PM.
    Regards,

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmTuna View Post
    Maybe a scale in the equation somewhere for the next test? Did the palomar break above the line test strength, or did it weaken the line? Did the palomar break at the same stress level that the line broke with the crimp?
    Capt. Ed.... I conducted the tests to see whether the knot connection or the crimp connection would fail first
    Regards,

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmitchell View Post
    The first photo is of the palomar knot.... http://jjsfishingreports.webs.com/ap...toid=152208269 It is difficult to see, but I left approximately 1/4" of a tag end on the knot


    The second photo shows where the line broke on both ocassions (these are two seperate main lines depicting the end of the line where it broke) Its obvious that both times the lines did not unravel, but broke as the knot tightened down on itself. Hope this clarifies things. http://jjsfishingreports.webs.com/ap...toid=152208270

    *It should be noted I used 30 lb. Mono in the above photos.
    From your picture the knot is tied wrong. the loop should be under not over your line if that makes any sense. when you cinch down the knot the loop goes under the the knot otherwise it saws right through your main line.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maximum Anchorage View Post
    FWIW at the canyon runner seminar I showed the crew the Miller Knot. Google "miller knot long range" It's a knot that I learned on the Royal Star while fishing out west. On the knot tester, the 50lb mono broke between 70 and 75.5lbs and the knot didn't fail. I crimp everything over 100lb, but this has become my "goto knot" for under 100lb
    That knot was bad ass I couldnt believe how well it held thanks for showing it to us!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmitchell View Post
    Capt. Ed.... I conducted the tests to see whether the knot connection or the crimp connection would fail first
    I know! Just was curious as to if the knot was actually failing above or below breaking strength of the line... just in case you were going to continue being our private test lab


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