VX Nerve Agent in the Delaware?

[Big Bass Turd]

Delaware Wants More Information on VX Waste Plan

Delaware officials have said they need more information about a proposed plan to dispose of waste created by the neutralization of VX nerve agent.

DuPont plans to treat VX hydrolysate at a New Jersey facility, and then to transport the 900 truckloads of what the chemical company says would be harmless waste to Delaware to be dumped into the Delaware River.

After reading the March 4 DuPont proposal, Delaware authorities are seeking more information before deciding whether to approve the disposal plan. They remain unconvinced the waste will be safe for people and the environment, the Tribune-Star said.

?No decisions have been rendered at this point on the Army reports and DuPont?s reports,? said Richard Greene, an environmental engineer for the Delaware Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Control. ?We are looking at this from every angle possible to make sure treating VX hydrolysate is not a problem and does not result in unintended consequences,? he added.

The waste would be effectively diluted in the river, said Todd Owens, a DuPont chemical engineer.

?The amounts of MPA and EMPA [toxic compounds in hydrolysate] and phosonic acid to be released in the river are within standards,? Owens said.

He said he was uncertain how long it would take for total destruction of the MPA and EMPA.

?I believe it?s months, not years,? Owens said. ?The biodegradation time is unknown. We aren?t talking about generations,? he added

[canyon caster]

take that to Iraq and cotaminate their water supply... This was going on since last year, lets put it in the CEO's back yard god knows he has more land than water we have to fish in... see how HIS NEIGHBORS like it ....

These Places cease to amaze me .... now you got a bulti billion dollar corperation and no body knows the properties of this chemical???? Come on I didn't take chemistry in high school , but I know enough about chemicals than they probably do , because I read the MSDS on every chemical that I deal with in work .. Why does the fishing and wild life community have to suffer because of some Arseholes bad planning ....? It's bad enough with all the oil tankers going down , dumping god knows what in the ocean,killing wild life, and the fishery , and all they do is pay a little fine then everything is clear and forgotten, and now this , no wonder they say not to eat the fish , or drink tap water , of course the CEO's of these cooperations don't care if they dump here , they fish where the water is clean... not where they pollute ... sorry for the rant but this is sickning.... Why isn't the RFA stepping in isn't this one of the things they fight for other than regulations?? or how bout the lobbyist for the enviorment ? they are probably living large because they got paid a sizeable lump to keep quiet ... just my opinion..

[ 03-18-2004, 04:49 AM: Message edited by: canyon caster ]

[canyon caster]

E-mail Krayfish or Mako6950 they are both Barners involved involved with the RFA and maybe they can shed some light on the subject at hand ..

[TWIN D'S]

I saw the news on TV and it's all spin by enviros it seems to me. Everyone loved nerve gas when it protected us, but now it's a horrible substance being put upon us by big business and big govt. The enviros hate nuclear plants, but they also hate coal power plants. They have no alternatives that would be economical.

I think I'll make a movie, "How I Stopped Worrying and Learned To Love The Bomb". Wait, someone already made this movie. ;)

[capthersch]

1. ?We are looking at this from every angle possible to make sure treating VX hydrolysate is not a problem and does not result in unintended consequences ,? he added.

2. He said he was uncertain how long it would take for total destruction of the MPA and EMPA.

3.?I believe it?s months, not years,? Owens said. ? The biodegradation time is unknown . We aren?t talking about generations,? he added


1. Could there be intened consequences?

2. UNCERTAIN? I thought all bases were covered. Could there be other things they are UNCERTAIN about?

3.?The biodegradation time is unknown. Could there also be other UNKNOWNS.

[Morrocco Mole]

I cannot believe that they would allow this to happen. The DE bay is not even close to being as clean as she could be now. I don't see plant growth except where there maybe pollution. I fished in the ST George Bridge in DE and there was a lot of algae. This I found to be very strange and so I stopped fishing for that day after catching this stuff on every cast. What's next fish with green fur coats?

[tugsnfishes]

Are these the same ARMY guys that told me and ALOT of other guys not to worry about the defoliants (agent orange) that was being sprayed on the jungle and us, "it only affects plants ...not humans", during our all expenses paid vacation in beautiful south east asia about 40 years ago ????

(god....am I that old ) :confused: :confused:

[Captblock]

CARNEYS POINT TWP. -- With sharp public outcry, hundreds of South Jersey residents and others responded to DuPont's proposal to treat a neutralized byproduct of the deadly nerve agent VX from the U.S. Army during a public information session Wednesday.

The session, held in the Penns Grove High School auditorium, attracted residents from New Jersey and Delaware, local officials and representatives of area environmental groups. They asked DuPont and Army officials about the proposed contract to treat the neutralized nerve agent byproduct, known as liquid effluent or "hydrolysate," at DuPont's Deepwater wastewater treatment facility.

Many residents and others expressed their concerns about the possible treatment of the neutralized byproduct in Salem County during the question and answer session of the evening. No contracts have been signed between DuPont and the Army on the proposed treatment project.

Deepwater resident John Constantino said he lives within 50 yards of the wastewater treatment facility where the byproduct would be treated and he has safety concerns. He said in the last year, the company has not addressed a leaf problem in the neighborhood, despite what he called its "good neighborhood policy."

"I feel that if I can't trust DuPont to take care of the little things, how can we take care of the big things like our future and our lives?" he asked.

Allan Muller, a member of environmental group Green Delaware, wore a gas mask in the hallway of the school before asking officials why community members near a proposed wastewater facility in Dayton, Ohio, were successful in turning the neutralized byproduct away. He asked if the public's comments would also be heeded in New Jersey if they were negative.

U.S. Army Col. Jesse Barber, projects manager for alternative technology, told him the Army is required to accept public input until midnight, April 19.

"There is not a contract in place," he said. "Every single comment will be considered."

DuPont scheduled the public information sessions after it recently completed studies on the safety of the project. In an analysis of comprehensive technical assessments, DuPont officials confirmed that the nerve agent byproduct could be safely treated at its Secure Environmental Treatment, or SET, facility. DuPont's analysis also found the nerve agent byproduct can be safely transported to DuPont's Chambers Works from the U.S. Army's Indiana site, according to company officials.

Amy Simmerman, a representative for U.S. Rep. Rob Andrews, said he could not attend the public information session because the house was in session, but he sent a letter, which she read aloud.

"Congressman Andrews opposes this proposal because it raises serious environmental, legal and economic questions," she read. "The disposal of our chemical weapons is right and necessary. But this plan would dispose of these wastes in the wrong place and in the wrong way. Congressman Andrews will work with state, local and federal officials to defeat this plan."

In response to criticism about the byproduct treatment in Deepwater, Barber told the audience that following the events of 9/11, the process to eliminate the approximately 1,200 tons of VX nerve agent stockpiled at the Newport Chemical Depot in Newport, Ind. was accelerated to reduce the possibility of the site being a terrorist target. He said the possible terrorist attack last week in Spain demonstrated the necessity of destroying the VX nerve agent as soon as possible.

"The greatest risk to our country is the continued stockpiling of this agent," he said.

David Boucher, a lifelong resident of Penns Grove and former borough councilman, said bad odors already plague the borough and he hopes the proposed treatment would not cause more problems for the region.

"Everybody I know and love and care about is here. But at some point, do we have to cut our losses and leave?" he said. "Indiana sounds like a very clean place."

Before the question-and-answer segment, people walked through the halls of the school, studying posters of the proposed treatment process from the Newport Chemical Depot in Newport, Ind. to DuPont's wastewater treatment facility in Deepwater. Officials from DuPont and the Army were available to answer questions and concerns about the process.

After Sam Visalli, a Mullica Hill resident and former DuPont employee, studied a model of the treatment facility, he said he understood more about the treatment process. But he also said he had more questions.

"Something can happen at any time," he said. "My daughter lives in Carneys Point. She's concerned about this."

Copies of the draft impact analysis on behalf of the Army's studies are available for view at the Penns Grove-Carneys Point Public Library, located on South Broad Street in Penns Grove, and the Pennsville Public Library, located on South Broadway.

[Captblock]

Yet the DuPont CEO will cut the the work force and send our jobs overseas to save the company nine hundred million dollars. We can do the job safely with less employees. That sure make sense. :confused:

Bottom line I don't trust the Army or DuPont. They are dumping in a polluted river where we are not suppose to eat the fish because of high PCBs and dixons. Do we really know the consequences or the environmental impact of dumping a nerve agent byproduct in the river, I think not.

Lets do a study and dump the nerve agent byproduct in a aquarium full of fish to see if they live and reproduce with no abnormality.

I am sure DuPont will be getting paid well by the Army to dispose of this byproduct. Just think it is our tax dollars. I do not buy this crap that DuPont is doing this for the security of the country. It is all about money.

[Fish4Life]

I am sure DuPont donated generously to the Bush election fund its pretty much how his administration does business. The VX may be good for some good automatic jigging action. All jokes aside it cant be good for the invironment! The scariest thing is they say they want to destroy it to keep it out of the hands of terrorists. I would like to think that the US Chemical and Biological agents are so secure that they shouldnt have that worry.

[CastawayRay]

We are also led to believe that there is some way to keep all this secret from terrorists, right?

sheitead and babeeb ride around in their camel stinkin rolling bombmobile til they find DUPONT WASTEWATER TREATMENT FACILITY, tighten the stinking rags wrapped around their slimeball heads til what little blood can get thru fnally stops flowing to their brain, and wailing ALLAH !!!!!! go careening into the VX treatment area

BOOOOOOM!!!!!

[ 03-18-2004, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: CastawayRay ]

[Big Bass Turd]

I would like to see the CEO of Dupont fill his family swimming pool with the ?treated? VX agent and then have his children swim in it to prove that what they are doing is safe.
The bottom line is this is big business, they will tell you anything that you want to hear so they can proceed with their plan of action and if something goes wrong, they will pay minimal fines and still walk away with a fortune.

[Fish4Life]

I agree! Put it in a lake on President Bush's ranch in Texas! You would think the Bush family would be fighting for anglers rights and environmental issues since the family enjoys fishing off Maine. Guess until Penn or some other fishing companies pony up the bucks we wont get Bush on our side!

[NIKKIB]

NEWS FLASH...FROM THE ARTICLE IN LAST SUNDAY'S COURIER POST, IT SOUNDS LIKE THE NERVE GAS AGENT IS ONE OF THE BETTER THINGS THAT DUPONT FLUSHES INTO THE DELAWARE.THE PAPER STATED THAT DUPONT TREATS TOXIC STEW FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY AT THIS DELAWARE TREATMENT PLANT. THE NERVE AGENT TREATMENT WAS LEAKED OUT TO THE PUBLIC SOMEHOW.IF WE ONLY KNEW WHAT ELSE WAS GOING TO THE RIVER.

[beer guy]

great 3 headed shark caught in dewawaee bay we are in big trouble

[WETDREAM]

A lot of "stuff" goes onto the river. Look how far this watershed covers and all the toilets under-treated, the refineries, cities with syringes washing in..street washings...add em all up....Yes Dupont does puts stuff in there too. And the most important thing is this watershed goes all the way up to New York.....acid rain from the midwest,mercury ...ect coming from thousands of pipes and towns along the way...looking for a cheap way to get rid of it.
Motiva....sun oil...and lots more of "employers"

Now here is the most important thing......It's all legal. If we really want to do something about it I'd suggest changing some laws. The clean water act has been stomped on to where it's really just a good idea instead of reality.

I want to stop any and all pollutants getting into this rivershed but till laws are changed we will just get on the latest bandwagon. Ok yell and protest and stop this one. But the big picture is delaware, pennsylvania, and new york corporations and residents not wanting to fork over big $ to do it the right way. The end result would be higher taxes for Everyone and that wouldn't go over very well. Politicians don't like that. So we have big corps sending jobs overseas to places that don't have enviromental rules as tough as ours...(though they should be tougher everywhere) and we bitch when they do.

Don't get me wrong....I don't want anything dumped in the river...the vx stuff too......but the subject goes well beyond the NIMBY.

I wish there was an easy way to say........clean up our waters and stop dumping stuff where I fish!!! But there ain't......

The only thing I do know is....when everyone beats the VX dumping....there will be a victory party but the pipes currently legally dumping stuff will continue cause the party didn't get the
rest of the big picture.

I didn't want to offend anyone....I just think the viewpoints ought to be a bit larger since the water comes from a variety of PIPES.

Ok....ready for the incoming flak

[capthersch]

No argument from me. I have heard for years that the ?Solution for pollution is dilution? this is not a new concept.
The big picture is that the Corps of Engineers wants to dredge with the resulting sludge going into solution.
Dupont wants to dump treated VX into the water.
Municipalities want to get rid of semi treated sewage.
Counties want to discharge low-grade radioactive waste into the river.
On and on.
The only common denominator is water.
The word is super saturation .
Water can only take so much then it becomes super saturated with as much as it can absorb, then it becomes something else.
The big picture folks is this:
The big people want to do what is economically prudent for them without looking at what every other organization is doing that is economically prudent for them.
All of the work that has been done to clean up our water ways are only acceptable if it allows people to continue with the age old belief
?That the Solution to Pollution is Dilution?
Just think about it.

[shinyo 2]

Why all the fuss and worry. Take it from a person that has,[hopefully" had "if my surgery worked]cancer from Agent Orange.You wont taste the Vx,smell it,or realize that when you are eating that nice 25 lb bass that it is in his flesh.You will just one day start to feel something different,go to the doctor and let him floor you with his diagnosis. Remember those immortal words to describe any event that may turn into a disaster,"Don't mean nuthin,don't mean athing." smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

[capthersch]

Shinyo2,

I?m with you.

I pray your hurdle has been overcome.

How many years did it take for the government to admit that they wrong about Agent Orange?

How many years would it take to admit, if ever that they were wrong on VX if they found out there were health issues?

Go back to the GIs who took part in atomic testing and any other testing and or use of chemicals and gases that was done and find out how many times the government was forthcoming about health issues as a result of using these things.

I just get sick to my stomach when I hear they are going to dump yet another ?safe? chemical in the river.

[ 03-22-2004, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: capthersch ]

[shinyo 2]

Originally posted by capthersch:
Shinyo2,

I?m with you.

I pray your hurdle has been overcome.

How many years did it take for the government to admit that they wrong about Agent Orange?

How many years would it take to admit, if ever that they were wrong on VX if they found out there were health issues?

Go back to the GIs who took part in atomic testing and any other testing and or use of chemicals and gases that was done and find out how many times the government was forthcoming about health issues as a result of using these things.

I just get sick to my stomach when I hear they are going to dump yet another ?safe? chemical in the river. Thanks for the thought.You are right it took years for my Uncle Sam to admit that he poison the very men who defended him.I am not the least bit bitter since I realize that the need for clear firezones was part of the neccesity to fight that war.I went through the original filing approx 15 years ago since I had to get my thyroids yanked,my daughter was born with a treatable birth defeat,and my wife had miscarriages. I was turned down and basically told to go away along with thousands of other Vets. The bulk of the money went to the attorneys[who most of them if they were recruiting age during Nam probably got defernments]. Oh well. The next time I showed up on the doorsteps of the V.A. I had my cancer surgery with a pathology report that they could not denied.They did get their final licks in since I waited 3 months after thay rolled me out of the operating room. Since I waited 3 months they did not award me 3 months of disabilty at 100%. I explained that it was a little tough to get down to the V.A. with sutures,staples and a cather in me.After all this hardware was yanked out me after 3 weeks from the hospital,I had no control of my body fuctions for 9 weeks. Pretty tough to get in the car and get down to the V.A. smelling like a day old crab in August and feeling like someone put a surf clam in your shorts.So should we sweat a little VX dilution in our water ways?If it is going to effect our children and grandchildren and pop up in their systems 20 or 30 years later causing pain and grief,the answer is obvious.I am no enviro-nazi radical,but lets look closly at the effects before we dump. smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif