Brigantine Fishermen Take the City of Brigantine to COURT

[NIGHTSTRIKES]

Fishermen file fraud complaint against Brigantine

By ALAN RAPPEPORT Staff Writer, (609) 272-7219
Press of Atlantic City

BRIGANTINE - A rule intended to prevent fishermen from accidentally reeling in surfers has frustrated some fishermen so much that they are filing a fraud complaint against the city with the state Attorney General's Office.

An ordinance passed earlier this year restricts fishing on a stretch of beach near the South End Jetty where four-wheel-drive vehicles are allowed. The rule, coupled with the closing of the state park at the city's northernmost tip, narrows the drivable beach where fishing is allowed to a 150-foot stretch on the inlet side of the jetty, fishermen said.

"Fishermen are accusing the city of fraudulently representing the permit fee," said Anthony Palmer, of Riptide Bait and Tackle. "They bought a $150 permit to drive on the beach and now they can't go fishing where they intended to."

Palmer said he has heard hundreds of complaints in the past two weeks, since fishermen have been asked by police not to fish in certain areas.

The city says they are merely asking the fishing community to use common sense.

"It's a mob scene out there," Palmer said of the crowded area where people can still drive their vehicles and fish. "People were ready to kill each other."

The rule was enacted because a surfer was allegedly caught with a hook last year.

"All of a sudden, I retire and I can't fish on the beach," Frank Howardell, 61, said while he looked for bait by the inlet Tuesday. "It always was a fishing beach. There's room enough for people to fish and surfers to surf."

The waves are meek and the surfers mostly just float around on their boards, argued Howardell, who had four tall rods on the front of his pickup truck and likes to fish every day. No surfers could be seen in the water around noon on Tuesday.

Restricting people from fishing on beaches where they can drive makes the sport more arduous for older people, according to Charles Hallowell.

"There's a lot of guys with disabilities that can't fish," said Hallowell, 62, who also goes fishing daily. "It's hard for them to come and lug everything up and down."

Fishing on the north end of the island is problematic because of a dense population of greenhead flies that inhabit the marshy terrain, Hallowell said.

One solution, they suggested, would be to change the ordinance to allow fishing before and after lifeguard hours.

The city said it has no plans to change the ordinance, which officials say already allows generous access to the beaches.

"If they want to invite the state to regulate this, they might end up with less access," Mayor Philip Guenther said. "A lot of it is common sense that dictates what they can do. If there are not surfers in the water, then they can fish."

Guenther said that only about 50 yards of beach where people can fish has been lost. Fishermen still have six miles of beach, he said.

"Most residents would like no one to drive on the beach," Guenther said. "If any of them would like a refund on their four-wheel-drive permit because they don't think they have enough access in Brigantine, then we would refund their money."

[ 06-02-2004, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: NIGHTSTRIKES ]

[Red_Cherokee]

All of you should go down at the same time and demand refunds, what a joke! It seems that the Mayor is a surfer.

[Jimbo]

Here's the latest in today's Press:

June 3, 2004

Fishers tell Brigantine council they?re angry about new rules
By ALAN RAPPEPORT Staff Writer, (609) 272-7219

BRIGANTINE - Fishermen brought their frustrations to City Council on Wednesday night, complaining vigorously that a rule giving surfing priority over fishing is unfair.

They referred to an ordinance passed in April that restricts fishing on a stretch of beach near the South End Jetty where four-wheel drive vehicles are allowed. Since the state park on the northernmost tip of the island is now closed, only about 150-feet of drivable beach where fishing is allowed remains.

The ongoing argument over who has claim to the water bubbled up again two weeks ago when fishermen said police asked them to leave the South End Jetty because surfers were in the water.

"These kids have the power to get us kicked off the beach," said Kurt Renart, of Richland. "And it's usually snot-nosed kids who aren't real surfers anyway."

The fishermen said that young surfers who knew about the new rule were using it to taunt them.

The ordinance was enacted because of complaints that some surfers were getting injured from fishermen's hooks. The beach on the north side of the jetty was labeled a surfing beach, giving surfers priority over fishermen.

"It was originally a fishing beach," said Frank Howardell, who fishes here daily.

The fishermen said they were never made aware of the new restriction, and that they thought they were supposed to use common sense about where to cast their fishing lines. Fishermen who are older or have disabilities were especially upset by the restriction because it forces them to carry their equipment to other beaches.

"This resolution says no fishing except on the jetty," said George Foreman, of Turnersville. "That's not what we agreed."

Council members agreed that fishers should rely on common sense to dictate where they fish. They seemed surprised that police would ask any fishermen to leave the beach.

"I don't think we're going to be able to regulate by the inch where everyone can go," Mayor Philip Guenther said. "I don't think you want us to enforce this by the letter of the law."

Fishermen seemed to agree but were still upset by the fact that the law favors the surfers.

"I don't see why it should be designated a surfers' beach," Len Goldfield said. "It should be first come, first served."

While some officials appeared regretful that the ordinance, which seems to have complicated matters, was ever drafted, none offered to change or repeal it immediately.

"If you're able to come up with a better solution, we're willing to listen," Guenther said, encouraging the fishermen to organize a meeting with the surfers to sort out their differences. "Maybe there's a way that we could come up with language that accommodates both sides."

About 10 fishermen approached City Council, questioning the ordinance for more than an hour.

"If we could just draw a dotted line down the middle of the water and divide it, we would," Councilwoman Sue Schilling said. "But we can't. So go forth and make nice."

No surfers attended the meeting. The fishermen did not say if they would continue to pursue the fraud complaint filed against the city with the state Attorney General's office. Guenther reiterated that he would give full refunds to anyone who wanted to return their four-wheel drive permits because of this issue.

Meanwhile, officials told the fishermen to go out and fish using common sense - meaning away from the surfers.

"This time of year, there's big stripers down there," Howardell said. "Big stripers. We've been waiting all year for this."

[NIGHTSTRIKES]

Originally posted by Red_Cherokee:
It seems that the Mayor is a surfer. He Sure Is,You Can See His Whole Family Down
There AnyWeekend....

[Brian E. Mullaney]

"If they want to invite the state to regulate this, they might end up with less access," Mayor Philip Guenther said"

What an arse - someone needs to hook him.

[mericanwit]

Greetings...
Now who's gonna take up the $$$$ collection to hire the "legal experts" to go at it with these "arses"...?

[fishtrek]

There used to be a rule of 50 yard buffer that all swimmers had to stay away from the jetty for safty reasons. I called the city controler but there is no reference to this in the code. This might be something that should be introduced into the code.

[surf cowboy]

This isn't likely to be a terribly expensive case to bring.

The most expensive evidence might be the testimony of an "expert" or two, although I don't know what about this case would require expert testimony, maybe the history of the beach use, or something. Very unlikely. Most expensive part of litigation will be the pictures of the area and the surveys.

The fraud complaint, by the way, doesn't put this thing in the hands of the state. That's a dumba$$ comment from someone you would expect to know better--he's either a liar or an idiot--probably both.

[Slammer3]

I think the Mayor would sheet his pants :eek: if everyone who bought a beach permit asked for the money back,they most likely have spent the money. :rolleyes: This mayor is against any fishing on Brigitine,period!!! :mad: I don't buy the the therory someone was hooked by a fisherman. :rolleyes: Let's remove the jetty because some surfer got hurt by the rock on the jetty,that will be the mayors solution,even though the a-hole surfers knows that if you wipe out,you will get hurt by the rocks!!! Don't get me wrong ,I am not against surfing,but as in any sport,there are a few a-holes that thinks its ok to weaving in out out where you are fishing,even though you have been there before sun up the lets NOT FORGET THE PEOPLE WHO FISH THERE FIRST AND ,SUPPORT THE LOCAL BUSINESS ETC. I used to do alot of surf fishing and really enjoyed it smile.gif ,but with all the towns along LBI charging for permits,not allowed to go on the beach during the seasons etc.,dealing with the jet skis etc,I got tired of all the BULLSHEET :mad: and bought the Slammer 3. :D I would like to tell you a story of about something that happened last year at ISSP. We got there good and early,nailed a ton of blues,stopped for a break and a little something to eat,a ranger came up to us and said if your not fishing ,you must leave. I questioned him on this,started to get a little nasty and said its the park regulations,when asked about the swimmers,jet skies etc. ,he said thats o.k.,they have the right use the park. Anyhow to make a really get under his skin and still remaim there ,I rig up a line ,with just a sinker and cast it out,with no hooks,and say look.I'm fishing now,can I stay. This ranger procede to be a pain in the but all day. I hope you guys win in the fight with city,but politics will prevail,and as usual,the fishermen will loose this battle. :mad:

[mericanwit]

Slam3, et al
you know what? the sad thing is you're right... Complacency is a wonderful thing..

[doe825]

Why do the surfer need that part of the beach, why can't they move up the beach into the swimming area. We lose the area down at the inlet to the jetskier, and boaters parking on the beach.

[ANDYSLIQUOR]

is anyone familiar with the "freedom to fish act"
and/or what the status of that bill is in nj.

this is a disgrace, i heard from a sudsman
a few years ago that they were trying to eliminate
fisherman. he was personally harassed by some
local that thought he owned the beach.

andy

[snapull]

Before i go into this.....I fish and i surf...So heres my perspective..going up a few posts....one guy states.. That i dont buy the theory someone was hooked.
Then he goes on about surfers not wanting jettys...LOL, you obviously know nothing about how a jetty works for surfing (probably not for fishing either) Im not going to go into why surfers lurk around jettys as this is a fishing forum and your interest in that issue probably doesnt exist, you want to fish which is alright/ Anyway, i understand people are upset due to the fact that they cant fish when they paid way too much for a permit. To finish this off, i saw about literally 150-200 people out surfing today at various spots i checked , and maybe between 10 people fishing the surf. Sad truth is when the surf is good, you will be outnumbered by surfers. Alot of them are under 18 so, before you hit them with your sputnik, plan to get sued, just like your going to fail to do in Brigintine. There are alot more places to fish than to surf...

[snapull]

for some reason the italic print got omitted in the previous post.....What i wanted to say was i have only seen one person hooked from a person fishing from the surf in the last 18 yrs i have surfed. So its not that common of a thing as some make it to be.

[Slammer3]

Snapull,I think your missing the point,WE PAY OUR HARD EARNED $$$ FOR THE BEACH PERMIT,SHOULD WE MOVE BECAUSE SOME SURFER DECIDES HE WANTS TO SURF THERE,EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE BEEN FISHING THERE ALL DAY? :rolleyes:DID THEY TELL YOU WHEN YOU PAY FOR THE BEACH PERMIT THAT SURFERS HAVE PRIORITY? :mad: DO YOU PAY TO SURF ON THE BEACH? :rolleyes: IS THERE A SURFING PERMIT REQUIRED? :rolleyes: DO THEY PAY $$$ TO SURF THE BEACH? :rolleyes: IF YOU KNOW BRIGATINE AND OTHER BEACHES,THE BEST FISHING FOR BASS IS AROUND THE JETTY,SOMETIMES BAIT WORKS WELL ALOMG WITH PLUGS. :D I am not against the surfers,but think about the scenirio BELOW,would you be a little pissed off if you have a good bite going,and have to move because some surfer decides he wants to surf there? :( Well ,I thought about going down to Brigatine with a few of my friend to surf fish,but I see the space is limited, I was talking to them today about the situation,they are thinking about taking the fat slob mayor up on his offer about getting the money back so the surfer can have the beach to themselves,but when the local ecomomy suffers,I don't want to hear them crying,we spend at least $50 per person per day almost evert time we go,and that doen't include lodging. Thank god I have the Slammer 3 and DO NOT HAVE to put up with STUPID BEACH POLITICIANS ANY MORE. :D

[BEACHBASSARD]

THE REAL PROB. IS THE NEW ORD STATES THAT YOU CAN ONLY FISH ON BEACHES NOT USED FOR OTHER PERPOSSES. WITCH LEAVES ONLY THE NORTH END AND ITS GREEN HEADS.
THE INLET IS FOR THE JETSKIES AND BEER DRINKERS AND PEOPLE SWIMING AS IS THE COVE.
THE PART ABOUT IT BEING A MATTER OF PUBLIC SAFTY IS JUST PLAIN FALSE.
IF IT WAS FOR PUBLIC SAFTY THERE WOULD (NOT BE)ANY ALACOHOL DRINKING/DOGS RUNNING WILD OR PEOPLE SWIMMING ON UNPROTETDED BEACHES.
ALL WITCH ARE LISTED AS NO NO/S BUT ARE NOT ENFORCED.
THE ONLY REAL TARGET IS THE FISHERMAN.
WITCH IS THE ONLY RESON ANY BEACH IN THE STATE WAS ORIGINALLY OPENED TO MOTOR VEHICLE ANY WAY.

[snapull]

I agree with you Slammer that the permits are way too much $ for beach access. but i dont think that surfers get priority, i think it would be like fire/police then people who own property within the town then the rest, not surfers who get priority. As for the permit to surf, i wouldnt doubt thats far around the corner. Hopefully its $5 per year when that takes place. The other thing you were talking about was if you were having success with the fish, and not wanting someone to disturb you if you are already there, i wouldnt think someone surfing would scare the fish away. but i know what you mean about first come first serve,etc. Then a numbers issue of who outnumbers who would come into play. So to sum this up. Hopefully everyone can access what they want to do, without cutting the other person out.

[ANDYSLIQUOR]

i've been camping on brig. beach a couple
of times with our boy scout troop.
the surf guys i encountered were doing a great
service to the community. they spent their
entire weekend teaching dozens of boys how to
fish and earn a merit badge. they supplied
the bait, tackle and especially their time.

i can't remember the name of their club, but they
were tellin me then(2002) that they feared
their days in the sand were numbered.

their just tryin to fish for petes sake.

whats next, EZ PASS COMING TO AN INLET NEAR YOU?

andy

[mericanwit]

Andy,
Pretty much a crying shame... And what happens at the next teachin' kids to fish outing? The police via the mayor will "arrest" a bunch of kids trying to fish? Hmmm.... Crazy times I tell ya... Crazy...

[MikeJ]

I have not bothered to look up the post, but...

I Told you so...

I went on a rant about Brigantine 2 YEARS ago on
this site on this subject.

I wrote a letter to the AC Press and Inquirer.

Then, after 38 years, I voted with my feet and have NOT gone back to Brigantine.

Having been a Home owner in Brig, full time and summer time, my family has owned property in Brigantine since 1948.
The politicians were "dirty" then and nothing has changed.
For those of you who are new (after casino) or day trippers to the NJ shore you have to understand that the Islands are run by the same families for generations. I guarantee you the Mayor, the Police, the town administration, the zoning office, all are in bed with the Realtors and the Developers, literally they are intermarried and /or related. Thats the way it works in small towns everywhere. If you had ever been to Brigantine in the winters in the 60s and 70s prior to the Casinos you would have been one of about 700 people on the whole island. They were there first they control it. Their attitude is, If you dont like it leave. They are making so much money from the "Casino related" property owners, they DO NOT NEED "tourists"! All they have to do is take care of the wealthy property owners and they can literally afford to ignore everyone else.

In fact, not just ignore you but actually discourage you. The town Managers DO NOT NEED YOU!
Your paltry few hundred dollars in purchases mean nothing to them. They get $3000.00+ dollars for taxes on a 1 bedroom condo. What do they care if you spend a paltry $150 on beach permit and a few hundred on bait tackle and food.

They will only care about the MAJORITY of the Property Owners, and laugh all the way to the bank.

Sorry, there I go again. After 38 years I guess it still hurts a little

[ 06-07-2004, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: MikeJ ]

[doe825]

MikeJ, I agree with you about the Majority of the property owners. But we as fishermen must show the city that we don' t agree with this and that we aren' t going to lay down just let them or any body else take our right to fish from the beach.
I have to ask this question where are all the fishing clubs, and the beach buggy assoc.. The reason I ask this is because, I have seen this on the Beach Buggy web site for some time now and I haven' t heard of any protesting. I just hope we don' t lay down and let them walk on US.

[FISH BUCKET]

they're are many ways to solve a problem and protesting is just one of them.sometimes working behind the scenes is just as effective.venting on the web is all well and good,but 100 people at a council meeting gets results,too.one thing every one is overlooking is that this is not an ordinance,it is a resolution.they are not legally the same.
big money can be beat,but it takes persistance.

[mericanwit]

FishBucket,
Speak on my brother.......!

[The Pirate]

Fish Bucket,
Here's the definitions of Resolution and Ordinance according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
Resolution,
4 : a formal expression of opinion, will, or intent voted by an official body or assembled group

Ordinance,
1 a : an authoritative decree or direction : ORDER b : a law set forth by a governmental authority; specifically : a municipal regulation

[FISH BUCKET]

if there has been a fraud suit filed,who actually filed it?if there is an ordinance saying that area is for fishing,i don't think a resolution can change it.

[ 06-17-2004, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: FISH BUCKET ]

[Longcast]

Just a thought, but doesn't the state own the lands below the mean High water line??? It's called the Public Trust Docturne.

Jeff

[The Pirate]

LongCast / Fish Bucket,
The public Trust Doctrine is very powerful. It may be the tool that can provide the remedy we need to regain our access rights. But it must be used by someone who is skilled in it's procedure. The place to focus it's power is at the State of NJ, DEP. They are the trustees. The City of Brigantine is really just a sub-contractor to the state to maintain the land, "trust". (That's why they and all beach communities are allowed to charge for beach tags. It's to recover their expenses in maintaining the trust for the state.) The following link is to the NJ /NY Bay Keeper website. They have a very good history of the Public Trust Doctrine and the Doctrine itself is linked at the bottom of the page.

http://www.nynjbaykeeper.org/ptd_conference.htm

[fisher224]

Go ahead and return your permits.

The simple fact is they sell alot more permits these days to nonfishermen by a huge margin. The surfers get priority there because it is the best and most popular place to surf on the entire island. More often than not it is basically the only place worth surfing on the island, especially when the waves get bigger.

I just don't get all the anger that a few of the fishermen have over this issue. Look around there are plenty of places you can fish from shore in Brigantine. Just use a little common sence and stay away from bathers. Go to any of the other busy shore towns and try to fish within 100 yards of a gaurded beach with bathers and see what happens.

[BEACHBASSARD]

FISHER224 I THINK YOU MUST NOT HAVE BEEN TO BRIG. IN A LONG TIME.
THERE IS ONLY ONE PLACE TO FISH THE NORTH END.
THE COVE AND INLET IS FULL OF DRINKERS AND BATHERS
(AND THEY ARE NOT GAURDED BEACHES)
SO GO PREACH YOUR PRO SURFER SH1T TO SOMEONE WHOW DONEST KWON BETTER.

[mericanwit]

BBassard,
Whewwwww......! Tell 'em like it is... Oh, yeah, we all forgot, we all have to watch out for the "hot-Sh*t" surfer dudes and that Brig beach has some serious waves...
Whewwwwwww......!

[fisher224]

These past two posts are very enlightning. The fishermen making the stink over there are obviously blithering idiots like these two guys.

[mericanwit]

F224,
Hey, can't we all just get along...? can't we just have a group hug...!??!!?!

[SURF GHOST]

I'm Not getting into this as I Think they should rename the Island "Adams Family Island" --- After the Song !!!!--- They go where they want to go, Do what they want to do !!!! The Adams Family. ------ HA!HA! tongue.gif tongue.gif :D -- SG

[FISH BUCKET]

has a lawsuit actually been filed?if so,would the person(s)who filed it,contact me.

[mericanwit]

SurfGhost
Adams family... Hah hah! Hey, as long the "Adams" family surfs them world class, killer waves that Brig has then all is well...

[SURF GHOST]

Originally posted by mericanwit:
SurfGhost
Adams family... Hah hah! Hey, as long the "Adams" family surfs them world class, killer waves that Brig has then all is well... Yea, I guess it makes a Surfer look like a Pro, Surfing 1 & 2ft.Waves !!!! :D Like, Wow Dude!!!
Surfs Up !!!! tongue.gif :D -- SG

[mericanwit]

SG,
Hollah...! But seriously, I stopped by the South Jetty for a couple of hours on Sunday, me, the queen, the little princess, and what a beautiful day to say the least.... Sun shining. Slight on shore breeze to keep the hungry gr&*nheads away, several fisherpersons (being PC here) working the surf and actually catching some serious sharks, toothy critters I might add too (one shark loooked like a Dusky!) Anyway, well... The waves...???? Hmmmm.... Welll, lets just say that I produce bigger "waves" in my bathtub from me eating way too many roasted peppers and garlic if you know what I mean! But hey they were out there hangin' 10 and having fun! So, I guess there seems to be some sort of cohesiveness towards beach access and use, must've been that "group" hug I asked everyone for a while back...
Come on now everyone, all together... Kumbaya.... Kumbaya..... Ohh-ohhh... Ohh-ohh...

[fisher224]

Quote from above
"Yea, I guess it makes a Surfer look like a Pro, Surfing 1 & 2ft.Waves !!!! Like, Wow Dude!!!
Surfs Up !!!! -- SG"


Yea its kind of like a fishermen catching 10 inch kingfish or nothing at all. Wow big bad pro surf fishermen. Like yo dingus these kingfish are seriously huge man!!!!

[mericanwit]

f224,
Quote from above
"Like yo dingus" Hmmm.... Such hostility... Come on now, "Dude," let's all get together and have a group hug...
But oh yeah..... Them Kingies are good eatin'...:)

[barrell]

Hint.Ask to see the medical report on the girl who was soposedly hooked last year and you will find that there is none. The hook only caught her wetsuit and never drew blood after she paddled into the fishermans line. This was an isolated incedent. The first time I have heard it happen in the 30 years Ive been here. It is being used sucessfully against you surf fisherman because you have failed to get organized. You all talk up a good storm but you need to fish less and put your money and time together as an organized group if you want a chance in hell of winning this.
Barrell

[NIGHTSTRIKES]

Originally posted by barrell:
It is being used sucessfully against you surf fisherman because you have failed to get organized. You all talk up a good storm but you need to fish less and put your money and time together as an organized group if you want a chance in hell of winning this.
Barrell There Are No Truer Words Barrell,
The Lack of Particpation On These Issues is
Horrible...There Are A Few That Get Very Involved
But We Really Need The Masses in order to get
things done.And These Issues Will Only Become
More Prevelent in the Future Concerniung
Access & Regulations....
I threw out there that we (TheFishermen)stage
some type of Demostration on the Beach During
the Height of the Summer Season (July&August)
back during the Winter Time when this was brought
to our attention..
But Nobody seemed to care...And With Something
Like This We Need Numbers to make a point.....

[Phil 4s]

I don't believe this topic is still around. As you said most fishernmen would rather B#%ch than get involved. Me and 3 other fishermen spent a lot of time last winter trying to solve this problem with City Council. A lot of work and time to come up with a solution for all and I don't remember seeing any of you that posted thus far at any of our meetings or lending any support when it came time for a vote. I will say one thing though, I have noticed a lot less fishermen this year when I'm out so maybe I now have more room to fish. And what is the matter with Kingfish!! One of the best eating fish in the surf. So do me a favor,unkless you have actually done something to try to solve the problem quit blowing off hot air and go fishing. Phil

[circlehook]

Phil,

its nice that you have more room but do you think that fisherman have throwns their hands up in regards to Brigantine and are done with it so to speak. If thats the case, thats not good, because it will get easier and easier for surfers, jet skiers, bird lovers, politicians - whoever - to impose their will.

Attacking people in posts and making jokes is funny.....for a minute maybe......but in the end its not gonna solve the problem.

Strikes - if you were serious about a demonstration did you get any response from the RFA, jcaa, asac, or local fishing clubs??? Thats where the numbers are. If you could organize a date with a representaitve from each of those org's than maybe you could get something going.

Im VP of a local fishing club totaling 60 members and at best, I may be able to get 5-10 people to show up something like that. SAD SAD SAD. No one is willing to participate, what can you do???

[NIGHTSTRIKES]

Originally posted by circlehook:


Strikes - if you were serious about a demonstration did you get any response from the RFA, jcaa, asac, or local fishing clubs??? Thats where the numbers are. If you could organize a date with a representaitve from each of those org's than maybe you could get something going.

I threw it out here on the Barn during the
Council Meetings over in Brigantine at that
time...No-One Really Picked Up On It,So No
I Did Not Contact the Various Organzations
that you mentioned...But Its Not Too Late
I Think ? If We Can Get Together And Do
Something.I am willing to help out- As Always..

[mericanwit]

Fellas,
The truth hurts so to speak... Barrell, Phils4, NStrikes all have valid points. Compancency is bad. Now, about becoming "organized" on this issue, or for that matter any issue, would, could a fisherman like me that is a "foreigner" (not being a local) have any impact with the local citations, codes, politicians, etc...?

[doe825]

Set a date and time.

[fisher224]

I guess I should not have ripped kingfish. They are one of my favorite fish to eat. My point with that post is this. I have seen on a number of occasions here fishermen ripping and trying to diminish what the surfers do in the water and make them out to be a bunch of stupid kids. This diminishes your whole position on this issue. It is just as easy for the surfers, kayakers and jetskiers to do the same to the fishermen.

I am an avid surfer and an avid fisherman. I have been on both sides of this issue. I have been the guy fishing on a jetty only to have someone on a surfboard paddle out right where I was casting. It has been a few years but I have also been on a surfboard near a local pier and had sinkers fly overhead.

I tend to agree more with the position of the city on this issue. That may not be popular here but I just don't think it is unreasonable for the city to do what it has done. Face it that beach is one of the most popular beaches in South Jersey for surfing and bathing and families. What the city has done is very reasonable. This state is getting more and more crowded, its not going to get any better.

PS If you think there are tough restrictions on fishing. Many towns in this state have outright bans on surfing altogether durring the summer and others only have a one block designated surfing area. Surfers have almost no voice in this state, especially compared to the RFA and JCAA and BBA. There are very few good places in this state for surfing to begin with, in fact I would say there are more good fishing spots on the island of Brigantine than there are surfing spots in the entire state.

[circlehook]

Strikes,

pick a date in late august or even over labor day weekend and Ill try to get some club guys to show. What were you thinking, an hour or two of picketing in front of the municipal bldg or somewhere more populated? The AC press will show up to publize it if we call em ahead of time. I can also contact ASAC and ask them to consider sending out a mass email or such. Try to rally guys on this board and the other boards, etc.

what ever is done needs focus. what exactly are we picketing. who is the demonstration directed towards. etc.

[fishtrek]

Would it not be better to get together with the surfers that the originaly helped to work out a comprimise & form a united front to the council? remember that there was hard work that was origianly done don't let that go to waste.

[NIGHTSTRIKES]

A couple of things need to be done here....

First , We need to find out the status of
the Fraud Complaint..Who Filed It, and what
has come of it.. Since the last Press Reports
back in June I have not heard anything...

Second, as mentioned above.This needs to be
bought to the attention of the Brigantine
City Council again...The Next Upcoming
Council Meetings are Wednesdays 8/4,8/18
& 9/1 @5:30pm..With or Without the Surfers.
I believe at the last meeting there were
NO Surfers and about 10 Fishermen..
These Numbers Need To Improve. Big Time...

Third,
Protest.-Something of the likes maybe at the
foot of the Bridge coming into town having
the fishermen with Big Signs attached to our
Fishing Rods that Read:
Demand A Repeal of the NO FISHING Ordinance
on the SouthEnd By The Jetty...


Guys, This Is Big.There are already signs
of the other towns down the coast adopting
similiar restrictions..I know its mostly a
summer time issue.But you never know, somthing
like this can become a year round problem...
And That Would Be Major.......

[C Side]

"Strikes - if you were serious about a demonstration did you get any response from the RFA, jcaa, asac, or local fishing clubs??? Thats where the numbers are. If you could organize a date with a representaitve from each of those org's than maybe you could get something going."

I've never fished Brig and probably never will, but I would be very curious to find out how the fishing organizations respond to a plea for help.
If it's anything like the NJBBA and the Island
Beach SP permit hike, it will be NO HELP.

[BEACHBASSARD]

GOD BLESS BARRAL AT LAST SOME ONE THAT TELLS IT LIKE IT IS :eek:
LOOK EVEN MORE INTO IT AND YOU WILL FIND THE GIRL WAS NONOTHER THAN (1ST WARD COUNCILMEN BOB SOLARI)
GIRLFRIND !!! THATS WHAT MADE HIM LEAD THE CHARGE TO BAN FISHING ON THAT BEACH.
AND COME UP WITH THE RESOLTION BANNING FISHING THERE.
AND THE FUNNY PART IS AFTER TAKING THE HEAT FROM THE FISHERMAN HE SAID IT WAS ALL A MISSUNDER STANGING.
AND THEN DID NOT EVEN HAVE THE GUTS TO SHOW UP AND VOTE ON HIS OWN RESOLTION.

BARRAL IS WRIGHT THERE ARE TO MANY VOTING FISHERMAN ON THIS ISLAND THAT DO NOTHING BUT CRY TO EACH OTHER.
ITS GETTING TIME TO ETHER RUN WITH THE HOUNDS OR GO CRY WITH THE PUPS!!!

[FISH BUCKET]

speaking as a directer of the njbba and courtesy patrol co-ordinater for brigantine,i canassure you that we will help.the problem is there are lots of beaches with issues and we have limited manpower.packing the council with fishermen would be a good start.there is a core group in brigantine that could get a lot done if they could get more fishermen to back them.if all the people who have posted on this site got together,
we would really get councils attention.we only have power if we speak as one voice.lets set up a meeting soon and see how many show.next weekemd on the north end?any better ideas?

[njfisher]

Things are peaceful here right now, so someone wants to come and make noise and rial everything up again?

Where were they when it would have counted?

The only thing demonstrating right now will do is create friction and start the whole mess up again.

Leave it be.

[FISH BUCKET]

walt,i agree that a demonstration would be counter-productive,but we should do something.if we are ever to get our beach back,we have to keep the heat on council.i'm willing to fight for the jetty beach and i don't even fish it.maybe we could all meet at a local b & t or on the beach to set our strategy.saturday morning?

[striper_man131]

when will I see this one Judge Judy??

[johnny d]

I read earlier that if there is no Surfers than you can fish the area.

Well, I have a Easy and quick solution to this problem.

CHUM, CHUM and CHUM some more. CHUM heavy with bunker, bunker oil, pig blood.

Start a slick that goes down the whole beach of Brigatine. Draw in every SHARK in the area and those ravenous Blue fish. I guarntee you when you start catching sharks and blues on the jetty. There will be no Surfers in the water. :D

I keep remembering the Beach scene from JAWS. Great Movie....


Johnny d

[ 07-21-2004, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: johnny d ]

[striper_man131]

Jaws my favrote movie ;)

[Red_Cherokee]

Bucket, I told you guys before, all of you go down at the same time and demand your 150 back, tey said they would give it back, make em, all at once. And striperman, you better change that sig if you want to go fishing Saturday. :D

[The Pirate]

The sharks are there. A bud and I beached a couple of sand tigers on the north end yesterday. Hum, I wonder why the kingfishing has dropped off?

[FISH BUCKET]

red cherokee,the last thing i want to do is kick myself off the beach!i wonder if anyone has asked for a refund?for 9 months a year brig is still a great beach.even with this crap in the summer,it's still better then most.i'm confident this problem can be worked out

[Red_Cherokee]

I hope so bucket, I am waiting to see how things pan out. I was going to get a pass this year but decided not to after all the crap. Maybe next year.

[NIGHTSTRIKES]

Originally posted by FISH BUCKET:
for 9 months a year brig is still a great beach.even with this crap in the summer,it's still better then most.This Is True,,,
But My Gripe is,Access Lost Is Access Lost.
Yeah Maybe It's Only A Summer Problem Now...
Their Is Already signs of other towns jumping
on the bandwagon here (CapeMay)for example...
What If The HomeOwners in the shore towns of
OceanCity,SeaIsleCity,Avalon & StoneHarbor
decide one day that they do not want Beach
Buggy's on (THEIR)beach say during the
Spring & Fall... That Would Not Be Pretty..
And Would Not Be Far to the Many Fishermen
that have been fishing with 4x4's for Decades
in those area's...

[SURF GHOST]

I'm Trying to stay out of this !!!! :rolleyes: But I remember we posted this long ago & seen who showed up at the Council Meeting when Phil,Rustyhook,Njfisher,Brigjetty1 & 1a and a few others were the only ones who showed support along with the BBA !!!! Seemed that nobody cared !!! They sat with the Surfers & the Council & absolutly Nothing was Solved !!! --- WHY ???? ----- DUH !!!! BECAUSE NOBODY SHOWED IN FORCE !!!--(Fisherman)--- So unless you guys come up with some kind of an Game Plan !!!! I'LL be here watching !!!! --- Boo !!! Now you see me tongue.gif Now you Don't !!!!!--- :D Just my 2cts.---- Sorry for the rant !!!! ---- :D --- SG

Oh Buy The way I'm The Ghost & I Approve this Message !!! --- tongue.gif

[ 07-23-2004, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: SURF GHOST ]

[johnny d]

I am really disappointed in the RFA and JCAA for not stepping up .

It's exactly the point that NightStrikes made, it's all about "Access".

I don't want to make excuses, but I wish I could've been at the council meeting to support you guys. It's just tough getting off from work at 6:00 and then driving for a hour. I will make a commitment next time if we can organize or need help at the next Council meeting. I will be there.

Johnny d

[FISH BUCKET]

nightstrikes,your point is well taken.most times the whole beach is not shut down at one shot but in dribs and drabs till its gone.its been a problem for many years and requires constant attention on our part.presenting a united front and getting big turnouts has worked in the past.with all the issues facing fishermen nowadays,they seem to be losing the will to fight back.we may not win all the battles but giving up will guarantee defeat.
surf ghost,you found out a sad fact,lots of people gripe but not many will put their words in action.most organizations have found this out years ago.it usually takes a big issue to get them out in force.but you would be surprised how much a handful of dedicated guys(and gals)can get accomplished when they are persistent.we have a group like that in brigantine.
johnny d,don't be disappointed in those groups.they are doing a lot of good in many ways but they can only spread them selves so far.this is an issue we should be able to take care of on our own.if we do need their help i'm sure we would get it.
lets try again to get a meeting set up.i'm a good soldier but not a good general.who is good at organizing?

[ 07-23-2004, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: FISH BUCKET ]

[SURF GHOST]

FishBucket,Don't count me out I Just wanna see "Who & What the Game plan is before I Make the trip again " Buy the way I Still Miss all the Good friends I have there !!! If there still willing to fight Than SO AM I !!! Just wish the rest of the Barners would have heeded the Call for help earlier.-- :( I think It will be a lot tougher then before,as they already have a foot in the door so to speak !!!--- Don't Forget Snake & Snake !!!! Also the fact that if you don't live there,-- You have no Say !!! That's BullShxt !!! --- I LIVE HERE IN THE -- USA.. <PERIOD !!!!! I'm A Citizen & should be allowed on any Beach as much as anybody else,Regardles of sport !! Because I live there all year round dosen't mean I have the right to force other people off the beach because I Think It's wrong !!! What's up with that ????? --- Boy I'm getting carried away !! JMOO. Guess I'll Fade out now & wait & Hear from my Comrades as to the Game Plan !!-- :rolleyes: I Still approve this Message. --- :D -- SG

[FISH BUCKET]

surf ghost,anger is good.all of us should be angry
enough to take action.i'm glad that you see that they are trying to snow us with that crap about being a tax paying resident.i'll bet 90% of those condo people don't live there full time.yet they get listened to by council.if we could get a 100
mad anglers at a council meeting,we would get our beach back.

[BEACHBASSARD]

bucket if you can me this week at work
390 5022

[doe825]

Please set a date, time and give every body a week notice we need to act now summer is closing fast. I think I speak for everyone when I say thank you to all the people who started the work and we are sorry we did not act faster. To all the fisherman yes you weekender,day trippers, or the ones who go down and wet the lines, drown the bait and sit back and relax. You need to act on this and show your support now.

[doe825]

Here are the email and the phone # of the Brigantine politicians this is public info on the brigantinebeachnj.com
(609) 266-7600.


Philip J. Guenther
Mayor
ext. 212
pguenther@brigantinebeachnj.com

Sam Storino
Deputy Mayor, Councilman ? Ward 3
ext. 324
sstorino@brigantinebeachnj.com

Sue Schilling
Councilwoman-at-Large
ext. 321
sschilling@brigantinebeachnj.com

Robert Solari
Councilman ? Ward 1
ext. 322
rsolari@brigantinebeachnj.com

Rich Casamento
Councilman ? Ward 2
ext. 323
rcasamento@brigantinebeachnj.com

John Murray
Councilman-at-Large
ext. 320
jmurray@brigantinebeachnj.com

Jim Frugoli
Councilman ? Ward 4
ext. 325
frugoli@brigantinebeachnj.com

James Barber
City Manager/**************** Dir. of Public Safety
ext. 212
jbarber@brigantinebeachnj.com

Lois Russell
City Clerk
(609) 266-7600
cityclerk@brigantinebeachnj.com

[striper_man131]

when will I see this on Judge Judy?

[3D]

Phil4s I see your point 100% and I know see how contagious it is...

It's tough for me to get to the meetings @ 5:30pm (my town has them at 8:30pm) but I will try to help w/ the presence.

[FISH BUCKET]

do we have 100 fishermen who care enough about this issue to make the 8/18 council meeting?i will
get off early just to be there by 6.if you can make it just reply with a yes on this site.a big turnout and the press being there,might get results.if we don't do it at this meeting,the summer will be gone.

[BEACHBASSARD]

bucket mt phone batt is dead
BUT IM IN!!!!

[fishtrek]

Is the gathering definite for 8/18??? If so I WILL BE THERE

[njfisher]

Bucket,

What are you going to do?

Even if you get a 100 people to say they will come to the meeting, only a few will show, and then what are they going to do - start a ruckus at the council meeting?

Like I said, things are quiet now, and they stopped throwing fishermen off of the beach. They would only do that if there is a lawsuit going on. Maybe the people that have the lawsuit, don't want it broadcast all over the internet. Or maybe they don't even go on the internet.

There must be something happening, or we would have been thrown off the beach when Rustyhook was pulling in shark after shark right down from the surfers.

I would hate to see some people who don't know what is going on, show up at the council meeting and start make trouble all over again.

If that happened, it would not be productive to the people that fish Brigantine all of the time.

[FISH BUCKET]

damned if you do and damned if you don't.i was under the impression that everyone wanted action on this issue.just because it's quiet now,doesn't mean a thing.till the resolution is voided,they will have the hammer to drop on us whenever they please.if theyr'e not enforcing it,why not just get rid of it?i'm going even if only a few of us show up.when we get it changed,everyone will benefit,casuals and regulars.

[njfisher]

Bucket.

There is a time and a place for everything - we had a time and now it is passed - that doesn't mean it won't come around again. If it does, and we need to put a call out - I hope that the response would be a heck of a lot better than it was the last time. But to come down when there is nothing going on is asking for the politicions to be able to grandstand and say "what are you talking about? we are all getting along together just fine" and they would be right, because nothing is happening now.

Just like the old saying - you have to strike while the iron is hot. Right now it's cold. It's the wrong time.

I am sure the right time will come again, but if anything happens now, They will make us look like fools again to the media.

[FISH BUCKET]

i don't think we should wait for trouble before we react.we are always on the defense,lets go on the offense and keep trouble from happening.we are showing council that the two groups can co-exist,so why not kill the resolution and put things back the way they were?what will happen in the fall,when the fishing gets good and the waves get good?if this resolution is still in effect,who do you think is gonna lose out?

[JoeBlack]

What a joke. The water is for EVERYONE, including fisherman. But please, don't start crying like a bunch of babies that it was this first and snot-nosed kids said this and that guy said that and finger point here and finger point there boo hoo. Take a stand like is being done but the only thing that needs to be said is that EVERYONE has the right to the water. Period. I don't think it is fair to fault the surfers for this...blame the dummy that made it illegal to fish where there are surfers. Nough' said.

Don't get me wrong, I think that the fisherman are getting a raw deal here. Its just said to see it turned into a "well I was here first" situation.

[beachball]

Well, for my two cents, you can still do more in Brigantine than in any other town along the shore. I couldn't believe all the No's that I find posted elsewhere. No this, no that, etc. The only No I noticed posted was no dogs on the beach until after 9/30, and I'm all for that "No."
I know some people have felt this has been a win or lose situation, but all Summer I've walked the beach and have seen a block of bathers next to a stretch of surfers, next to a bunch of fishermen, next to kayakers, etc., etc. I'd just hate to see this get resolved by legislating the answer . . . I think the "get-along" approach works pretty well. Having a family that does all of the above, I don't know of any place I could go and have the variety of opportunity.

[FISH BUCKET]

well as of today(15th)there are just two people who replyed yes.i don't imagine 3 of us are going to make much of an impression on council.has everyone been lulled into a false sense of security or did this beach suddenly become not worth fighting for?i'm gonna go(if i get done work in time)with 3 guys,2 guys or by myself.

[Phil 4s]

Bucket, I guess you can see now what we were up against this winter. People just don't want to get involved but will B!#ch when things don't go their way. Phil

[NIGHTSTRIKES]

Guys,
If You are able to attend the meeting Wed.8/18
Please Try to Find Out What The Status of
the Fraud Complaint that was filed against
the City with the State Attorney Generals Office.

Since The Article back in June hit the
newpapers about this I have yet to hear any
details or status of what going on with it...

Appreciate it,like mentioned above they make it
real difficult for the working man to attend
these meetings...


Thanks,,,