Weakfish

[sunny2]

Lets talk weakfish . What happen to them ? Sometime they seem so perdicable you could set your watch by them . And sometimes well you know . Are we ever going to get or share .I dont catch a lot of weakfish ,i do fish for them alot and I may only keep one or two all season .


Never bad Fishing only Bad company

[ 01-11-2004, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: sunny2 ]

[WETDREAM]

Seems 2003 was a weird year for em. Up around fortescue they didn't show up till the fall. And then we were catching big ones 5-8lb-ers in 4 ft of water using catfood for chum. Doesn't make sense but I guess thats fishing. Just when you think you figured em out they do something new. They seem to be more cyclic than any other fishy out there .....to me anyway. Maybe 2004 will be a banner year for em if the stripers don't eat em all up. I pull quite a few out the guts of stripers...up to 10" or so. Who knows :rolleyes:

[TWIN D'S]

commercial landings of weakfish in pounds.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/081740.jpg

[eelball]

This year seemed to be "quality" not "quanity". The bigger fish came early, like usual, but stuck around for the majority of the year. Late in the season there were good numbers of spikes, which I hope leads to good numbers in the near future. I had more large weakies this year than all my years combined.

[NIGHTSTRIKES]

I agree with eelball, last year alot of nice
(quality) Trout for me,never did fine big numbers
(quanity)of fish after the Spring Run....

True about the perdictable part. In years past
once I found them I was on them for awhile..
Last year,very spotty I had to really work to
fine them even after bailing them in certin spots
that they like to hangout at for extended periods of time.

Looking forward to the 2004 Weakfish Season....

[sunny2]

This spring is going to be difference . I am going to consintrate and catch em up . I also think you may have a good point about the spikes turning into nice fish .
steven and Sunny

[Fishpicker]

Sunny2 I'm with you , I think that I'm going to dedicate the month of May to Mr Trout .
We don't want rain in April but we do want to see the dogwoods poppin the first week of April . Ah Good Friday ;)

[ 01-12-2004, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Fishpicker ]

[barnaby]

Originally posted by sunny2:
This spring is going to be difference . I am going to consintrate and catch em up . I also think you may have a good point about the spikes turning into nice fish .
steven and Sunny sunny2:

I am sure you know all the "hot" spots like Cape May Point, Higbee's, 2 MIle Bridge, etc. But try to find some put of the way spots too. I fished 2 Mile a lot because I live 2 minutes away but also did well at some other spots that saw less anglers. I caught more fish and bigger fish at 2 Mile but enjoyed the spots with less angler instead of having to jockey for position. Shoot me an e-mail in the spring and maybe we'll hook up.

P.S. I enjoy your column in the Herald, keep up the good reports.

[Dr. Bass]

I had an explosive Spring, big weakies, biggest I have ever seen, 10-16 pounders(April-May). After that, landed one stray on a crystal minnow in broad daylight. I never fish exclusively for weakies I must admit. I will say this, at night I know of spots that have consistently held weakies for about 12 years(not always catchable), NOT this one though. They just were not there. I saw many caught however from guys that were targeting them, just not in great numbers. One memorable catch was a good 5 pounder caught on CLAM on the bottom. A true first, came back for it after I missed him the first time. I don't know what the answer is,but as with most things time will tell :confused: This is a good post, may shed some light on this confusing issue if reports are credible. Was not around around when the stripers began their decline, have not been part of any fish demise, hope this is not a first. Weakies are a beautiful fish, fight hard, hate to see them go :(

Ron

[ 01-12-2004, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bass ]

[TWIN D'S]

Looks like the weaks are on a down cycle with croakers on the upswing. Last down cycle lasted twenty years according to the graph. 1950-1970

Phil

[sunny2]

Dr. Bass they are big weakies 10 to 16 pounds . I am shakeing just typeing this . But I need details .What did they fall for bait, what kind fresh or frozen live ? bucktails ,with worms and what color what weight . lure`s mirrior ? rattle traps . Moon phase , tide which is best day or night ? Thanks for the feed back. Never bad fishing only bad company

[Bridge Kid]

10-16lbs!!!!!Man fill me in on the lure situation with that bro :D

[jc]

I caught my 1st weakfish this year on pink finesse with a 1/4 oz jighead around the second week of April, Caught 7 fish that day up to 10 lbs. The year before it was warmer and I had a similiar catch a week sooner. Biggest fish this year for me to date was caught at the end of April 11lbs 13oz on a pink finesse. I think I have had good luck because everyone forgets about the Trout and are still targeting spring bass at this time. I usually start fishing for them the 1st warm spring day (above 70 degrees) in April. If the wind is blowing South or Southwest in April it always seems to make them bite. The northly or westerly winds are not as good in the spring. If you start targeting these fish in late May you are missing at least half of the spring weakfish run they are around in early April is some spots and depending on Wind/Water Temp/tide the bite is usually good.

[BUCKTAIL WILLIE]

I had only a few days when I had trout, last week
of April I got into several in 4-8lb range on pink 1/4 oz bucktails with purple worm,
than last week in July I got into another batch for couple of days in same size range ,but they were caught on pearl pentrators.
I wasted a lot of time searching for trout that never showed.
This was first year in several that I didn't have a solid run of 3-6 lb trout first 2 weeks of July
There also didn't seem to be the really big schools of spikes we usually see in the fall.
There were some schools but not nearly as large as years past
I happen to think that the cold water most of the summer pushed the trout north,people I talkd to up in Long Island claim they had one of their best years

[Dr. Bass]

Well, don't mean to let anyone down, buy I just can NOT divulge the spot. Told one guy the exact location, a barner, you know who are, and that's my limit. It was at night, during a clam worm hatch, Springtime. Fell for all artificial. Crystal minnow, plastic worms were doing the trick as well. The bigger ones almost looked like they had teeth.

[NCsurffisher]

We had a bunch of big weakfish in Oregon Inlet from April through July. Biggest over 14 pounds, but lots in the 4-8 pound range. My largest was caught in OC, though, on a pink spotted mirrolure; about 8.5 pounds. We usually have a lot of smaller weaks (what you'd call spikes), but this was the first good run of tiderunners that I can remember.

[TWIN D'S]

pink zoom super flukes were definitely a hot ticket in the spring. the big fish showed north along the coast much earlier than in Delaware bay, which I found interesting. Virginia caught the most large trout since 1982. They have good records from the salt water fishing tournament. Got my largest ever along the coast and largest ever in delaware bay. the 10.25 in the bay hit a 1/8 oz jig tipped with a 1 inch chartreuse mr twister grub.
My opinion, the catch of large was so good because the other sizes were missing. The typical summer trout in Delaware bay were MIA.

Phil

[bassvamp]

Phil, nice chart, any idea what caused the high spike in 1980? and is there any graphs around that show a larger time span as well as something more up to date? I would find it interesting to see if a pattern could be found.

[Bridge Kid]

That all i needed to kno dr.bass......

[CapeMayRay]

Got some nice Weakies At Cape May Point and the beach front in the spring up to 8.5 lb using flyrod, and with bloodworm and bobber up to until 1st week in June. At that time the spikes moved in. Had good action on flyrod untill water cooled mid july and never saw one the rest of the year. Back bay behind Wildwood didn't see one all season.

[TWIN D'S]

Originally posted by bassvamp:
Phil, nice chart, any idea what caused the high spike in 1980? and is there any graphs around that show a larger time span as well as something more up to date? I would find it interesting to see if a pattern could be found. Matt,

The graph appears to show a cyclic population at its' peak in 1980. That graph actually goes to 2001 but I cut the year off when I copied it. I'm not sure if there's an up to date one out there. Maybe ASMFC has one on their site. I have another one that shows numbers of rec and comm fish caught, and both show the same relative decline. Well, here it is. It's the bottom graph here
, the bottom two lines.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/081734.jpg

[TWIN D'S]

Bottom graph shows comms landing 2,000,000 fish with recs around 700,000. 2002 and 2003 had to show further declines I would think. As much as I dislike the MRFSS, in this instance it appears the decline in rec landings mirrors the comm landings.

Phil

[BIGGESTJACK]

PHIL--IF THAT GRAPH WAS A STOCK IT WOULD BE DELISTED AND A PENNY STOCK ON ITS WAY TO ENRON.

[Bob ECT]

Originally posted by bassvamp:
Phil, nice chart, any idea what caused the high spike in 1980? and is there any graphs around that show a larger time span as well as something more up to date? I would find it interesting to see if a pattern could be found. The huge spike in the early 80's is when recs sold all their fish too. All that rec caught fish that got sold went into the comm number.

[Capt.Mike4108]

I think an underrated factor in the decline of weakfish is the increase in the number of dolphin around. Those things eat 50-100lbs. of fish per day to sustain themselves. Their favorite is those 12 inch weakies. The entire fleet in Cape May catching their limit everyday all season can't match what those things kill in a week. Just my opinion based on observation.

I think they're beautiful animals and they're fun to watch but they do consume mass quantities of trout.

[NIGHTSTRIKES]

Originally posted by Capt.Mike4108:
I think an underrated factor in the decline of weakfish is the increase in the number of dolphin around.Good Point Capt.Mike,
I would have to agree they do take their share
thats for sure.Its seems you see more and more
of them every year.And I have Seen the Weakfish
bite turn off as soon as they show up....

[YoungGun24]

This was a strange year for weakfish to say the least. You had to love the size of the fish but I really did miss those nights when we would catch 20" weakies on almost every cast. Summer nights catching weakies may be my favorite type of fishing. Hopefully we'll get them again this year.

[chunking]

Three years ago I could anchor up in one of many spots in the back bay and catch spikes one after another. 12 - 13 inch and big schools.

I like many figured that the next season would be the big payoff. Never happened.

Seems like any time we see big years of any small fish the next season just never materializes.

Day time fishing in the back or for that matter anywhere is more difficult. Weakies may spook faster than any of our local fish. Thousands of boats tearing it up isn't an ideal way to fish for weakies.

Picture trying to fish fresh water for trout with the kind of boat traffic we have and you could starve to death.

Some areas had good catches and others had almost none. Some had big fish while others had spikes.

Weakie fishing is the biggest throw of the dice for any of our target fish. Hardest fish for me to figure out. What realy bugs me is sometimes when they are there you would swear they weren't.

There is a fantastic ecosystem working right now with their favorite food in abundance. Lots of food and clean water so something or someone is taking them.

[sweet release1]

got a 13lber on my lunch break at the bogota :D but not too many all year??

[Dr. Bass]

Hope that helps Bridgekid,

[TWIN D'S]

Wasn't it about 1980 that stripers were at their low point?

Phil

[sunny2]

Dr. Bass the worm hatch I belive your talking about the cinder worm > I could remember the first time I seen them it was at the parking lot in Stone Harbor by Smugglers Cove . I was up all night watching them . Saw about a 4 foot shark crurise in for a feast . I did not know what was going on at first then I figured it out . It was early spring . The next year I was on the look out for them . Chunking had a good point about the dophin . and every one had big fish but few and far in between . We still don`t have a solid answer. What happen and why and can it be fixed .

[sunny2]

I was referring to capt. Mikes post and not chunking .Sorry .Chunking I like to respond to your post about something or someone is taking them and not ther food supply . I s that what your saying . When you think about it, I think its a very good point . Could it in fact be the bass in part ?

[CapeMayRay]

This spring you could see the dolphins feeding on the large tide runner size weakies, comming up with them across their mouth like the bears in Alaska. They just don't eat the small ones. Saw a couple of fish caught at the point with dolphin teeth marks in them, where from when they got loose. Hope this comming year is better, but I am not betting on it.

[BUCKTAIL WILLIE]

Not sure I buy the dolphin theory,growing up in 50's,catching a weakfish in Cape May County was a newsy thing and rare event.
Early 60's they started showing up late in the year under the lights into Dec,following years saw a buildup leading up to the magnificent 70's and early 80's of BIG fish,my largest in 1989 was 17" 4" but very quickly they were gone.
In my mind 2 unique things took place during that time frame
#1--Salem Power plant started SUCKING up billions of gallons of water and in it millions if not billions of small fish.Over time it is pulling down the spawn size rapidily
#2-The winter commercial kill went after the weakfish off North Carolina because the Stripers were way down and in later years off limits
The combination of the 2 has wiped out generations of weakfish and what few fish are still around our area are larger fish.
They are prolific spawners so with a little let up and the smaller fish given a chance to spawn(they spawn at age 1) we may see a return.
For my money the Power Plant is the # 1 evil to WEAKFISH

[TWIN D'S]

Bucktail,

Salem 1 went on line in 1977. See the first graph I posted above. Serious declines in harvest didn't begin until the early nineties. Given the average life span of harvested fish, it would seem that something other than Salem is at work. That's the way it seems to me. Does Salem have an impact? sure it does, I'm just skeptical that it has the impact claimed, based on the evidence I see.

Phil

[NCsurffisher]

just FYI, VA (mostly caught in the Chesapeake) had more weakfish citations (256) this past year than it has since 1982. Not sure what their citation size is for weaks, probably 10 pounds or so.

[BUCKTAIL WILLIE]

Twin D's---you are making my point I think. Late 70's through late 80's we saw some outstanding weakfish fishing with BIG fish in Delaware Bay.
These fish came in there to spawn,each year after about 1986 catches were big fish but fewer numbers until early 90's when Bay started drying up.
Think about all those spawners up in the bay and eggs hatching only to be sucked up by the power plant. As long as there was lots of spawning going on we wouldn't see the difference but as fish stocks dropped so did spawning BUT Power Plant still continuing to pull huge amounts into their intakes
Probably can't say for sure how much of an impact it is but for sure it is a impact that started during time when weakfish were abundant.
There are some who say reason for increased weakfish beginning in 60's over the 50's was due directly to cleaner water in the Upper Bay
which allowed weakies to have improved spawning results but as it peaked the Power Plant came on which "may?" have reversed the trend
just one man's opinion who has seen the ups and downs of past 50 plus years

[TWIN D'S]

BW,

See the bar graph above. It reflects the age of fish caught by recs and comms. Comms typically catch fish 1-4 years old. Therefore, if Salem ruined the spawn, we should see that reflected in the comms landings relatively quickly?? That doesn't seem to be the case. How do you interpret those graphs? Do you suggest that ALL of our gamefish species, bass, fluke, weaks, etc can ALL be at maximum biomass at the same time, like indicated in the 1980 population of weakfish? Can we have outstanding fishing for all species at the same time? It's an important question because once one answers it, it will change the way we look at fisheries management overall.

There were no regs on bass and weaks through the eighties. Bass went downhill by 1980, yet the weaks were on the upswing and at their peak. Was there really overfishing on the bass? Did the gillnets only take the bass and avoid the weaks? If the gillnets were fishing on the bass all those years, surely they would have caught the heck out of weaks. I think you see the point I'm getting at.

I'll see if I can dig out the graph that ASMFC says is the spawning stock biomass of weaks. It's a real eye opener when considered with landings.

Phil

[TWIN D'S]

The other thing I was wondering with regard to Salem, how come the stripers seem to be thriving in the Delaware River estuary if the weaks are being adversely affected by the power plant?

Phil

[sunny2]

That is a good point regarding Salam plant .

[CapeMayRay]

Twin D's My thought is that most of the stripers that come to spawn in the Delaware do it much farther up the river in the fresh water. I used to live in the Palmyra, Riverton area and there were always tons of small bass from minnow size and panfish size. The weakies probably do most of their spawing in salt to brackish water, closer to the Salem plant and bay.

[Dr. Bass]

I know what a clam worm looks like, can not say for sure I know exactly what guys are talking about when they refer to cinder worms. I gather it goes by another name , anyone have pictures of both?? One of my most memorable fishing trips was a late afternoon fishing a sodbank. Was catching tons of weakies when a school of dolphins moved in. I would see two or three dolphins screaming up a bank, then nearly surface with a weakie in their mouth ,absolutely unbelievable. Will never forget that!!

[BUCKTAIL WILLIE]

answer to stripers is they spawn in fresh water several miles up the river .Weakfish spawn in salt or brackish and use the wetland meadows as fingerlings much more than bass
I'm not saying Salem is only problem ,what I'm saying is it "could" be a significant factor.
Putting it in simple terms and assume it affects 5% lets look at this way 100 fish spawn and 5% of spawn gets destroyed by Power plant leaving 5% less available to spawn next year ,you continue this on with 5% reduction and before you know their are a lot less fish spawning.Admittingly this is very simplistic but could be a factor
I will agree with you that it would be remote to find Excellent years for Bass,Weaks, and Bluefish.
One would be the strongest or best of the year and others on a down size.My problem with that is while I think there is a natural control of these fish when something unnatural like a Power plant begins to affect the population it can screw up what is natural
As far as commerical catch is concerned I was told by a fairly large gill netter out of North Carolina a few years ago that they don't generally get weaks with bass in winter time.Bass are very close(50yds to 1 mile) to shore making it possible to net from beach and weaks usually winter little further (1-3miles) off shore
I'm not sure the commerical catch will always reflect the biomass as you would have to factor what was targeted each year .
I sure don't have the answers but it makes for interesting discussions

[TWIN D'S]

I agree with you guys, the bass spawn in the brackish water, even though the area of brackish changes according to the weather, runoff etc. the larvae and fry still have to pass those intakes where one would think there is potential to have the fish sucked in.

I'll see if I can scan the graph of weakfish biomass tomorrow. What it shows is a continuing rise in the numbers of weaks, even though catch rates have fallen dramatically. :confused:

And I agree, it makes for interesting discussion.

Phil

[candyman]

Originally posted by TWIN D'S:
Wasn't it about 1980 that stripers were at their low point?

Phil Yep , and all the boats in Cape May were targeting weakies in the rips with white bucktail and purple worm. There was no limit on them and 10 - 15 lb. fish were common.

In the seventies while working on ACBP, I got one with a oar from the lifeguard boat. School of big weakies came across the sandbar into the gully so I smacked one in the head with the oar.
Don't know how much he weighed but had to fold tail back as I closed the trunk on my VW.

Now????? got a couple but was looking for stripers when it happened.

[Far26]

Lots of good points. Having read reports/charts from other fishermen there seems to be some reason for concern, even after my best year for weakfish. Granted the smaller summer schools didn't show up in great numbers, this year I caught my 3 largest weakfish and had fish to 32/33 inches from early May through late October/early November.
The first question we have to ask ourselves is what would a normal weakfish run be like?
To me the season starts late April/early May with the tiderunners showing up and sticking around until mid-June. The numerous smaller weakfish (10-22 inch) move in soon after and hang around until sometime in October.
Most years it's been like clockwork, but there have been plenty of exceptions which I believe weather plays a major roll. Water temps (from very cold long winters) rain runoff changes backwater salinity levels (normal for us over the last ten years is drought conditions by mid-July), dramatic changes in the barometer and wind also plays a roll (as I believe weakfish perfer long periods of calm, stable weather). Throw in varieties of bait and locations they are holding. Striped bass come into play as they will eat weakfish and many fisherman are targeting bass more so than weakfish.
This past year I noticed a smaller than average run at CMP north to WW, many of the areas I fish year after year were just not putting out the numbers as years past. North of WW fishing was better than average with large weakfish in good numbers for the entire season.
After all that being said there were more than a few nights I watched 24-34 inch weakfish swimming around and couldn't get there attention. Trust me when your sitting over 20 large weakfish watching them feed without a hit for hours you can only wonder how many fish are down there that you don't see doing the same.
I enjoy fishing for weakies more than any other species because I find them the most challenging to figure out. I've spent hours many nights trying to figure them out and still feel as though I know very little.
Fishery management bases our fish stocks on catches (it's the only way we have), who's to say how many weakfish are around maybe we just aren't catching them?

[ 01-16-2004, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Far26 ]

[NIGHTSTRIKES]

Far26 who's to say how many weakfish are around maybe we just aren't catching them? Another Good Point Frank....
I seen some of the same things you described
this past season in regards Weakfish Behavior...
Smart Fish....Very Much Aware of their Surroundings and Conditions....


Thx,

[fishpole5]

I had some in the back bays, mostly small, all summer long, when I went to my favorite spots in the ocean at the right tide, Porpous all over the place, I guess they know as much about tides and weakies as I do, I think I did so good inside was because they couldn't get out the inlet, the Por. were waiting for them-MPO fishpole

[TWIN D'S]

http://www.hunt101.com/img/090317.jpg


http://www.hunt101.com/img/081734.jpg

[ 01-16-2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: TWIN D'S ]

[fishpole5]

I really believe that the dolphins have a lot to do with it, a friend of mine was fishing Egg Island Point and said he saw a huge school fo dolphin run big tide runner's right up on the mud, he said it was like a school of bluefish hitting silversides or sand eels, he caught nothing the rest of the day. Question,what are clam worms and what do they look like, there not those orange things I see swiming around the docks about once a year are they?? :confused:

[TWIN D'S]

ASMFC says that as of 2000, there were near 120 million pounds of spawning age weaks out there. Now look at rec and comm weak landings. They have gone steadily down while biomass is going up.
What are the possibilities?

1. the biomass estimate is just plain wrong.

2. the biomass estimate is right, but the fish swam offshore, because even the comms can't catch 'em with trawls and gill nets. The rec catch doesn't matter because there are too many variables for this exercise.

3. the bimass estimate is right, but there are massive spawn failures

4. the biomass estimate is wrong because it failed to fully account for predation in the winter by bass and bluefins and dolphins off NC.

And the list goes on. I know one thing. They weren't in Delaware Bay last spring/early summer because I made numerous 30 mile round trips and my sounder indicated bare bottom. Only very specific generally small spots consistently held fish for a while. It wasn't a matter of us not being able to catch 'em.

[ 01-16-2004, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: TWIN D'S ]

[Far26]

Phil I know what your saying, by all the information available to us it looks bad. I just have a hard time accepting some of the "estimations" given to us by fishery managers. Please read the "Anglers unite with bioligist to change Weakfish Plan" in last years edition of the 2003 NJ Marine Digest, specifically the Something's Fishy paragraph.
If things are as bad as they look should we expect reg changes anytime soon? Surely if our striped bass or flounder biomass looked the same, drastic changes would not be far behind.

[TWIN D'S]

Frank,

I hear what you're saying. That's why I particularly like the graph of comm landings. If they can't catch 'em with nets and trawls, they ain't there. At least in inshore waters.

As far as the regs, using Delaware Bay as an example, one can't catch what's not there. Tightening regs would have little impact except to put the Bait and Tackle shops out of business.

Once regulations on fisheries were put in place, anglers came to expect improvement in the resource. IMO, this led to the false belief that regulations alone would result in good fishing.
The striped bass is a fishery commonly used as an example of what good can come from more regulations. IMO it has not been proven that ONLY regulations revived the bass fishery. The bass fishery apparently thrived just fine until the late seventies and early eighties, with minimal regulations. That's why this graph of the weakfish landings of comms provides for plenty of discussion.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/081740.jpg

Both sides of this graph look almost identical. Of course, the left side is pre regulation while the right side is post regulation. The regs that began in the 80's have not seemed to make a difference that I can see.

What I think, is that the most we can hope for from reasonable regs is to fill in some of the valleys in the graph above, to better balance the fishery. That doesn't seem to be happening at the present time for weakfish though.

Think about the target spawning stock biomass of weakfish that ASMFC decides is good. How does anyone know how many weakfish are good for mother nature at any given time? Only Nature knows that. The graph above shows that what was a good bag limit in 1980 would not have been so good in 1950 or 2000. It's a moving target, so anyone that tells me how many weakfish there should be at any given time is only kidding themselves( not you Frank, I mean ASMFC.)

Where are the sturgeon? ;)

Phil

[Dr. Bass]

I agree with your thoughts, Phil. All you can hope for is sound fishery management to fill in some gaps. It is statistically impossible to uncover one reason why fish populations change, there are too many confounding variables. By that I mean many factors that can be associated/related with the desired outcome but not necessarily independent in their relation to the outcome in question. Here, I guess that is fish population/survival. All above factors are related and do have an effect, no one would argue that, but which is more important/damaging, who knows??

[ 01-17-2004, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bass ]

[Far26]

Phil I agree that fishery regs alone are not enough to ensure that the biomass will recover, it helps but only to an extent.
I guess what I was trying to say is the commercial and government agencies use the same techniques as we do. Year after year we find weakfish in certain areas and come to expect those areas to hold fish. This year I noticed there were plenty of weakfish just not in the areas I usually fish. Years past (98-02) there were more spike weakfish in our backwaters than anyone could imagine, where did these fish go? By the charts above the commercial guys didn't get them so what else could have happened?
How can anyone explain the large amount of big weakfish that stayed all year long? Why did so many of us catch our largest weakfish in the past 10 years?
Seems like I'm the minority but I was impressed by this years weakfish run. After having my best year ever how am I to believe there are no weakfish around? How many of these people spend the amount of time I do on the water?
Phil I know you read the Fisherman Magazine, look at the years past compared to this year for the largest weakfish. Pretty impressive, can't remember the last time a 10lber didn't make the top ten list.
The bad taste I have for the government agencies has much to do with the flounder regulations. It seems no matter what we do or how the flounder stocks look we keep taking a hit.

[eelball]

Originally posted by Far26:

The bad taste I have for the government agencies has much to do with the flounder regulations. It seems no matter what we do or how the flounder stocks look we keep taking a hit. [/QB]You said a mouth full.

[NJAngler Bill]

Many of you guys have read my thoughts on this topic (my "15" rule). Based on feedback I've gotten, I know some of you agree that my thoughts make alot of sense and others think it's all idiotic.

Bottom line is that everything out there affects everything else. I don't believe that our inshore marine environment, as it exists now, can support superb fishing for everything we like to catch. Weakfish compete for existence with lots of other species, including both stripers and bluefish. Twin D's alluded to something very interesting early in this thread, and that was that when the weakfish were in their heyday in the early 80's the striped bass stock had completely tanked. I, for one, do not believe this is coincidence.

Weakfish seem to come and go very quickly and this has much to do with their biology. They reach sexual maturity VERY early in life, so they are capable of bouncing back quickly. They are also smaller and more fragile than other species that they compete with, and this has much to do with why they seem to disappear so quickly.

In summary, I don't believe weakfish were overfished in recent years. In the 80s maybe, but not recently. I think the recent sharp downturn is more a result of competition in their environment than anything else, and I have absolutely no recommendation as to how to fix it.

.02

[TWIN D'S]

Originally posted by NJAngler Bill:
. Twin D's alluded to something very interesting early in this thread, and that was that when the weakfish were in their heyday in the early 80's the striped bass stock had completely tanked. I, for one, do not believe this is coincidence.

.02 Bill, I don't think it's coincidence either. That's what got me thinking about this weakfish thing, that and the sudden appearance of large numbers of croakers in the bay and along the coast. The croakers and their resurgence are seemingly ignored by fish managers, not as a resource, but for the questions and implications raised by their appearance.

If we assume that various species have natural cycles, the next question would be "Are those cycles random or are they predictable?" Looking at the above graph, it would appear the weaks are in like a 50 year cycle, assuming such a cycle exists. ASMFC has only been around for what, 25 years? So in terms of fishery management, they would still have plenty to learn.

Bill, I have no answers either, but it is quite an interesting discussion.

Phil

[TWIN D'S]

Originally posted by Far26:
Phil I agree that fishery regs alone are not enough to ensure that the biomass will recover, it helps but only to an extent.
I guess what I was trying to say is the commercial and government agencies use the same techniques as we do. Year after year we find weakfish in certain areas and come to expect those areas to hold fish. This year I noticed there were plenty of weakfish just not in the areas I usually fish. Years past (98-02) there were more spike weakfish in our backwaters than anyone could imagine, where did these fish go? By the charts above the commercial guys didn't get them so what else could have happened?
How can anyone explain the large amount of big weakfish that stayed all year long? Why did so many of us catch our largest weakfish in the past 10 years?
Seems like I'm the minority but I was impressed by this years weakfish run. After having my best year ever how am I to believe there are no weakfish around? How many of these people spend the amount of time I do on the water?
Phil I know you read the Fisherman Magazine, look at the years past compared to this year for the largest weakfish. Pretty impressive, can't remember the last time a 10lber didn't make the top ten list.
The bad taste I have for the government agencies has much to do with the flounder regulations. It seems no matter what we do or how the flounder stocks look we keep taking a hit. Frank,

The comms usually do catch the smaller ones. And like you, I had a great year on the large fish. It sort of dispels the notion that the "netters get all the spawners". And the Fisherman Mag contest took a 12 pounder to squeak in last, that was me. smile.gif Where are the fish? I don't know. They claimed there were 120 million pounds of spawning biomass in 2000. Spawners are generally fish at least one year old I think. Either those fish were never there, they went offshore, or something ate them. That's all I can come up with.

The fluke situation. The fluke were being fished at the threshold of the spawning stock biomass. Soooo, the resource was divided, 30% rec, 70% comms. That means that we are held accountable for the weight of the fish we catch. Hence, we entered the land of Catch-22, whereby increasing size limits increase the weight of our landings and therefore takes fewer fish to get that weight. Getting the fluke thing straightened out is now a political matter.

It will be interesting to see if the weaks show in the same places as last year.

Phil

[Dr. Bass]

This has been an informative post. Perhaps all factors are in play here. Trends in natural selection :such as increases in striped bass and bluefish numbers creating more competition for food, higher presence of predators like the dolphin, and of course US, reflected in both commercial and recreational catches. Combine that with natural evolutionary cycles and embarassments to reproductive cylces like Power Plants and I think we have the answer. I hope they make a strong come-back this year!!! Only time can unlock Mother Nature's secrets, but it's OK for us to think we have the key, sometimes.

[ 01-18-2004, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bass ]

[fishin4em]

i had them early spring up here in monmouth county. Very nice sized fish 8 to 14 lbs, then all of a sudden spike's showed up . the big boy's left and the spikes lasted about a week and disapeared too. hot lure was pink sassy shad, seems flaptail jig out produced the finness this year 10 to 1. then later in the summer down around seaside park OC. while crabbing off a dock at night , baby weakfish were very thick , not many snappers just weakies, the problem was the orientals got wind of them being there daily and came by the van full and caught cooler loads every night and took them home. this sort of thing is going to do more dammage than the gill netters . i was told by a local that these people were basically owners of chinese resturants and they were using them for the main menu at their places of buissnes. the warden showed twice this summer and ticketed them , but it didn't seem to slow them down at all. it must be that they made more money selling 5inch fish than they paid in fines. i got sick of watching this go on everytime i went down there .i just imagine how many other docks in barnagate baay had the same thing happening :(

[hurler]

Twin: Coastal harvest numbers may have declined in 90s but trust me, the DBay large weakfish were in serious decline by 1984. By 86, pretty much all of the nothern charter boats gave up on the annual Spring visit to Cape May. The number of head boats was cut in half. The pressure on those fish between recs, gill netters and the "two boaters" was amazing back in 1978-83. The power plant no doubt has contributed to some extent in preventing a good recovery.

[Get it wet]

I think you guys are making a great argument here I just want to add my $.02. Stop and think about what going on good in the bay in the last couple of years. Striper, Flounder, and Crockers. All are comeing back and what has droped off weakfish. The other thing I have noticed is an increase in the number of dolfins in the bay. There is one more thing we have to add is the number of fisherman that now use the waters we fish. They to have increased. Some thing has to give, that right now is the weakfish. Let's not forget about other fishing regs that play apart in what is going on. The shark regs have changed. I now catch more under size Brown's then ever before. A three foot shark was easy to keep when they were leagle. With this change in reg's now I am sure all will agree that the smooth dog fish have increased in size and in numbers. Some people keep them too to eat. It has been a long time since I have seen one at a cleaning station. I also know that several were killed in the past just because they bit your hook. The weakfish isn't the only thing that has started to decline, do you remember what an Ouster chracker is? It's been a wail since anybody has complained about catching them. Remember they were being sold off our coast and nobody cared, maybe the weakfish and toads are connecked some how. Don't forget about the crabs and bait fish they all have to eat something. All I know is every time we do something to help it can hurt something else. There needs to be a balance that is why they set reg's in the first place. The whole picture needs to be looked at before we do anything but most of the time we don't see something in the back and just look at the flowers in the front.

Maybe I made my point here maybe I ddin't but we will see changes everytime we changes things around here.

[bob930]

Good point above. I also caught more small seabass in the back this past year than all my others combined.

[Capt.Mike4108]

Does anyone remember when you could go out to the 60 ft. slough and fill a bucket with blowfish. I haven't caught a Northern Puffer in 30 years. I heard they need the eel grass to lay their eggs on. 30 years ago most of the bay was lined with eel grass. I guess its pollution or just lower water quality.

This year anchoring in the 60 for bass I noticed when I pulled the anchor that the bottom was this black sludge. Not muddy stuff. Sludge. Almost oily sludge. :( Granted we didn't anchor much back in the day, but I can't recall anything like this. The trout used to spawn in the bay. Do they bed like bass? Do they do it in schools like an open orgy as some fish do? I don't know. I don't think the conditions are prime for a major spawn and therefore a major comeback anytime soon.

There have been some great points made above all pointing to a continued spotty population. Thank god for stripers. smile.gif

[TWIN D'S]

When I was a kid I remember guys with coolers of blowfish, in the 60's. Long time....

Lots of good points in this thread, but some more food for thought. Mature female weakfish(those one year and older) lay somewhere between 1 million and ten million eggs over the course of weeks. The latest ASMFC assessment(2000) blames water intakes in the Delaware River estuary for killing 2.2 million age one equivalents. It would seem that there would be plenty of eggs around to cover that impact. Looking at the wider picture, exactly how many fish could be killed when we know that very few were around in Delaware Bay last year to spawn? The concentrations of large weaks were actually on the coast. I don't doubt a power plant impact of some kind, but I think we should keep it in perspective. And again, the bass are doing fine and expanding, even though they spawn in some of the same waters.

Similarly, it was estimated in the early 80's that shrimpers killed 20 million weaks a season in the Carolina sounds. BRD(by catch reduction) devices were then required. The latest report deems them a success. But, there are many fewer weaks spawning succesfully (apparently) so it would make sense one would see fewer bycatch weaks anyway. When reading the ASMFC (or any) documents one has to be careful and consider time frames and populations etc.

It will be quite interesting to see what happens to the future of the weakfish, particularly with the croakers and bass expanding each year. The problem I have with ASMFC is they pick 1980 to be the reference year of a healthy weakfish population. Why not 1950,1960, or 1970? The point is, they can't know what the population should be at any given time. If they shoot for the stars and look for an unrealistic weakfish population, it can only mean one thing; overly restrictive regs.

I was looking on the internet for data on blue crab catches from like 1950 to the present but couldn't find any. Anyone got a source?

Phil

[NCsurffisher]

Phil - out of those 1-10 million eggs, the percentage that make age one fish is probably very very low. Very low. 2.2 million age one fish seems significant to me. Maybe not devastating but significant.

[c-witch]

Fishpole-
Cinderworms are the small orange/green worms that hatch at night a couple time during May/June moons.

Clam worms are another name for sand worms.

One of Mike Laptews striper videos shows them mating.

[Get it wet]

Phil

Don't you think it would be easyer if they were to catch breeding stock weakfish raise sevaral million yearling fish and release them to the bay? I am sure fish egges are great food for most fish in the bay, baby weakies might be better but at least they would get a one year start.

[the hitless wonder]

good thread. never tried trolling for weakies, figured they were too spooky. have to give it a shot, thanks. with regards to the previous post, has a saltwater stocking program ever been implemented successfully? sounds like a decent idea, but aren't there more difficult needs to attend to when raising a saltwater fish? pardon my lack of knowledge on this matter, but i had never really considered stocking the salt before.

i actually had a decent year with weakies. even had a 7 pounder jump onto the sod about 40 yards from me at dusk one night (not chasing my bomber). thought about tossing him back due to my sense of fair play, but he had been writhing around in the mud and i figured his slime coat was too compromised for him to survive anyway.
he was tasty, but i felt a bit guilty :( .

[chunking]

Been thinking about this one for a few days now.

For me weakfish are the closest thing saltwater has to trout. I'm not talking about hatchery trout either.

I can still remember as a kid with my grandfather sneaking up to his favorite trout stream for some natives.

The last few yards we were on our hands and knees so we wouldn't spook the fish.

Now scale down the two fishing areas. Our local waters fill with every size boat and waverunner imaginable. Start your outboard out of the water some time and see how much noise you make. Noise travels faster under water and it will hit the fish just like a breeze hits us.

Now picture a trout stream and although much smaller noise will travel the same. Now because of the stream size picture a bunch of remote controled boats speeding around with remote waverunners running into the shallows. How many trout do you think you will catch?

I believe this type of traffic and noise can do one of two things. 1. send the weakies packing or 2. put them off their feed.

Even if you do find quiet water you don't know if the fish that may be there are under stress from earlier traffic.

You may still find some feeding fish or even a school that will turn on. Sadley we have turned our waters into one large wet drum and the noise can be defening.

I see hundreds of weakies under the lights at night but where are they during the day? Just maybe they are running scared.

Just another idea that came on a cold night. :D

[TWIN D'S]

chunking,

I knew you had to have been thinking about this one. ;)

Phil

[fishpole5]

Thanks C-witch, I'm pretty sure that is what I've seen swiming around the dock at certain times of the year, Thanks again, fishpole

[ShoeB]

You should see 'em CRASHING into the jetties mid-week.. Amazing! literally hurling themselves into the rocks in a frenzy chasing bait. Come Saturday, when the rocks are elbow-to-elbow, slow pick...

He's on to something.. spookable fish.

[BUCKTAIL WILLIE]

I'm not buying the dolphin theory, I'm down here in SW florida for couple of months catching trout on regular basis and there hasn't been a day go buy I don't count 25-30 dolphin.
Trout aren't big 16-20" but right size for dolphin