Why is the RFA recomending the biggest MPA?

[Guatemala Dave]

Now if the above alphabet soup got your attention I will try to make this clear.

I have been very happy with the work a
the RFA does and have been an avid reporter. We all know one of their biggest fights has been to fight MPA's, (Marine Protected Areas)

I have been watching the discussion concerning the opening of the EEZ to striped bass fishing and though I knew something is definately wrong concerning the closure of this area I couldn't put my finger on exactly what it was.

The facts have been stated here dozens of times so to cut right to the chase. The EEZ is closed to striped bass fishing strictly as an ARBITRARY area closed strictly to keep anglers away from the fish.

The stripers are already strictly regulated to recreational fishermen by size and numbers limits as well as seasons.

To Commercial fishermen there are strict quotas, seasons, gear methods and other regulations all relevent to their respective states and in NJ there is a mandate by the government that the Striped Bass is a Game fish and no sale or commercial possession is allowed anywhere in the state. That would eliminate any possibility of any commercial fisherman landing stripers in any NJ port or even transporting thru state waters.

Now not accepting any arguments which include any referance to bad enforcement, which oviously is happening now I would like to ask the following question:

How is closing the EEZ to stripers any different than any other area closure?

If we accept that will we have to accept closure of the Hot Dog for tuna, any artificial reef area for bottom fish, Delaware Bay for weekfish when fishing is permitted everywhere else?

Actually I feel anyone who fishes fron Barnegat inlet north to New England should be eliminated from this argument since the costal depth keeps a majority of the stripers inside state waters in this area.

Costal areas from Southern New Jersey South are extremely affected by this closure as at the point of the migration that the striped bass pass us unless very favorable conditions keep bait in very shallow water, the vast majority of the fish are far outside the EEZ line.

As a retailer of fishing bait and tackle as well as running charters this closure has a tremendous affect on my buisness. With huge numbers of legal fishermen waiting for a errant school to come in over the line while a large number of scofflaws fish at will.

If the EEZ is open there will be a great market for appropriate tackle for fishing the open water areas. Boat manufactures will see a definate bump as more anglers upgrade for an easier ride to the fish. And even the back bay fish hunters like myself will have a better chance at the fish since more anglers will be headed offshore.

But one last stab at the original question. How can closure of the EEZ for stripers be considered anything but a coast wide MPA?

[TWIN D'S]

quote;

How is closing the EEZ to stripers any different than any other area closure?

If we accept that will we have to accept closure of the Hot Dog for tuna, any artificial reef area for bottom fish, Delaware Bay for weekfish when fishing is permitted everywhere else?

I think I agree. EEZ may have had its' place in the past, but to now accept huge closed areas "just because" sets a terrible precedent, one that may come back to bite us in the arse. A lot of the support for keeping the EEZ closed has to do with fear.

[Brian E. Mullaney]

I SEE YOUR POINT DAVE - BUT ITS AN AREA CLOSED TO ONE FISH - NOT ALL FISH LIKE AN MPA SO.........

SECONDLY THE POINT REMOVE BARNEGAT ANGLERS NORTH - THIS IS A MIGRATORY FISH THOSE ANGLERS SHOULD BE CONCERNED AND ARE IM SURE I AM ONE

TWINS - WHAT IS THE ROOT OF "THEIR" FEAR??? COLLAPSE OF STOCK AGAIN - HISTORY REPEATING ITSELF - SHOULD THEY NOT BE CONCERNED?

[OCR Sean]

I was under the impression that if the eez was opened to recreational fisherman it would have to be opened to commercial guys too.

[Guatemala Dave]

Yes, if the EEZ is open to fishing for stripers there is the slight possibility that a commercial fisherman could legally catch stripers past 3 miles.

HOWEVER every state commercial striper fishing is regulated by strict quotas, fishing methods, seasons, gear types lisences, tags and other methods of regulating catch, as well as many landing regulations.

All current quotas are easily being filled inide state waters so it is very unlikely that commercial fishermen would go into federal waters outside their own state much less use time and fuel to go to federal waters outside other states.

As to New Jersey, if an out of state commercial fishermen was fishing outside state waters he would not be able to enter NJ waters with stripers in possession, much less land and sell them at any New Jersey port.

As to By-Catch of stripers during other fisheries it is already happening and the fish simply go overboard dead. Unless we find a way to outlaw any and all by-kill there won't be a way to change that.

[BUCKTAIL WILLIE]

Given the fact that large spawners are being taking out of the Delaware every spring on their way up to spawn ,couple that with opening of the EEZ and allowing more large fish to be capture, we will see a dramtic drop in Striped bass population . WHEN that happens all the tackle shops and charter guys will be bitching that they have no buisness in Nov-Dec due to no stripers around.
Happen once and will happen again

[NJAngler Bill]

Dave, I certainly understand your sentiments - very well said and much merit. Twin D's said it right. Fear is what keeps anglers from wanting to open the EEZ to striper fishing. I have to admit, fear is what makes me want to keep it closed, although the logical side of my brain tells me I should be arguing in favor of opening it.

When it comes to keeping our striper stocks at a high level of abundance, I don't worry at all about overfishing along most of the coast during most of the year. I think the most significant risk of overfishing involves specific areas during specific seasons. When large portions of our coastal stock are crammed into certain areas, thats when real damage can be done.

One of these "high risk situations" is the overwintering population in the EEZ off of the Carolinas. I want that body of fish protected as much as possible, and opening the EEZ is a pretty scary possibility given the reputation (deserved or otherwise) of both recreational and commercial fishermen in that area for finding ways to "fly under the radar" of enforcement.

I'm simply too scared, like many other anglers, of what might happen if we open the EEZ.

[Bob ECT]

An MPA is closed to any and all fishing, usually with little to no science behind it.

Just a little different then not allowing bass fishing in the EEZ to give them at least some protection.

Why exactly do we need to open it? Is there anyone who can't catch their limit inside 3 miles?

Why fix what ain't broken?

[barrell]

If they opened the eez then wouldnt the comercials scream to get back their qouta which is now the bonus tag?

[Bob ECT]

They already whine about that smile.gif That's NJ's decision, not the feds.

Would opening open the EEZ and going back to 1 fish help the charter boats? Comm landings would stay as they are, it might make it a little easier to catch it though. Rec landings though would likely go up. Since were already fishing at the max, we'd be facing cutbacks.

Careful what you wish for.

[Darrin G. DGREENEMACHINE]

Considering the fact that catching a few fish to eat is NO PROBLEM inside the EEZ. There seems no point to opening. It will definitely make the regs that much harder to enforce. Let's face it, if you want to C&R fish you can go bluefishing all day long till your arms fall off, so what's the point of allowing thosee fish to be killed? It's like gun control, the outlaws will still be there. The guy who keeps over his limit is keeping fish from the EEZ now, so why allow the legal kill of tons and tons when they can easily be had within the three mile limit. Let those who swim offshore go on their way unmolested. We have plenty of success picking off the edge for fish to be killed.

[Guatemala Dave]

While this is still under control lets look at where we stand.

Bucktail Willie says we will kill too many spawers, Opinion ? The feds are using best available science and say it is viable.

I don't always agree with the science, but that is what the management of all fish is about.

Bob ECT says that a MPA is closed to all species with no science, The fed science says OK, I only care about 1 species, so I can't fish there. As I noted above that could be used as a precident for the possibility of specific location closures on migrating species.

I think NJAngler Bill states everyones true feeling, FEAR , But FEAR is the most dangerous. What is it that the Anti-Forces use to impose their will, FEAR. If we can justify closing 99.9% of the ocean to striper fishing strictly on FEAR then the spin doctors of the preservationists will get the ear of politicos and bend it with stories that will make this closure look like free pickings.

I already said that enforcement issues don't count DGreenMachine admitted that there are already enforcement problems, so with openings they will change but never go away. How to address that is for another day.

Then I do believe there is the segment that considers this their private fishing ground. Vulgar Guy tried to address this with sarcasm in the EEZ thread and was ignored, but I believe he brings up a valid point.

Lets keep the ideas flowing.

[Bob ECT]

Considering how close we are to overfishing any increase in catch rates for recs will mean cutbacks. Do we want that?

[Capt Bill]

Here's what I saw: We were catching 40 pound stripers in the Cape May rips in the early seventies. Surf fishing in LBI was good and The LBI Striper tournament was a huge fall event.The commercials rounded up all the big breaders in North Carolina and other southern states and in the Eighties we couldn"t find a Striped Bass.They changed the name of the "LBI Striper Tournament" to the "LBI surf fishing tournament" because no one caught a qualifing Bass.The Jersey shores were deserted in the spring and fall
They closed the EEZ and the fishery returned to what it is today....a chance for everybody to catch a large fish and a $6 billion plus industry!!
The EEZ must stay closed until we can get "GAMEFISH" status for the Striped Bass.
As large a group as the Saltwater angler is in the Northeast and Mid Atlantic area, don't we desearve one....just one gamefish?

[HutchJr.]

Dave,

Personally, I'm not against the use of Marine Protected Areas (MPA) as a conservation tool - we already have them in terms of the EEZ and the catch and release fishery during the spring spawn on the Delaware, even closing the back bays to striper action during the winter layover.

What I am against - and what I believe RFA is fighting against, along with others - is the creation of any MPA or the closure of public access without the utilization of sound, available science.

Science and economic studies have proven that the EEZ closure to striped bass harvest, and sound conservation methods over the past 25 years, has resulted in an outstanding fishery. The economic benefits of this fishery (see Southwick) are too great to tinker with.

The striped bass comeback is a success story that the Fed should embrace. One of very few success stories they can brag about. Commercial fishermen - where applicable - still fill their lineside quota. Recreational anglers still take their limits on a daily basis along the inshore waters.

Again, where's the need to tinker with success, when this success is soundly supported by available science and valid economic studies?

Keeping the EEZ closed to striper fishing is good for the overall economy of New Jersey - from motels and restaurants to recreational ports of call and tackle shops.

[Brian E. Mullaney]

HERES MY IDEA KEEP IT SHUT DOWN IT HAS WORKED FOR THE SPECIES

WHEN IT GETS TOO COLD INSHORE TO CATCH STRIPERS FISH FOR TOG AND SEBASS

[fran]

Dave, I believe that the continued closure of the EEZ to Striper fishing is good. It has proven that a fishery that was all but gone could survive and multiply.

The fear of the hotdog being closed to tuna fishing is a valid one. However, if Tuna went the way of the striper, why wouldn't you want it closed ? I can't believe you would want Tuna stocks depleted as happened to the striper.

In my opinion, the closure doesn't give anyone a leg up. We catch our limit now. To what purpose does it serve that it be opened?

[TWIN D'S]

Originally posted by HutchJr.:
Keeping the EEZ closed to striper fishing is good for the overall economy of New Jersey - from motels and restaurants to recreational ports of call and tackle shops. Let's make a few substitutions and see how this shoe fits (for future purposes)

Keeping the near-shore and back-bay waters closed to outboard motors and foot traffic is good for the overall economy of New Jersey - from motels and restaurants to binocular shops and bird watching tours.

How's that sound? :D

[HutchJr.]

>> How's that sound?

I guess it sounds good in theory, until you compare the monies generated from birdwatching in New Jersey to that of recreational fishing. Then it's fairly nonsensical.

Recreational fishing is a multi-million dollar - with boating and engines added, it's easily billion dollar - economic engine in New Jersey. Simply no comparison, but thanks for playing along.

[West Ave Mike]

Dave, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[Captn Joe]

Guatamala Dave,
That was a very good post and certainly has gotten some thoughts stirred with me.

I have mixed feelings about the EEZ, I too think its time has come and gone, change is our ever constant in this world after all.

With limits in place, and careful management, I feel that fishing there will not collapse our stocks.

Its uncontrolled fishing from both sectors that make all this possible.

Krayfish,
I also support the idea, that a slot be established, similar to what they did for Redfish and Snook. Give each person a tag for 1 fish over 40" for a person who wants to keep that fish of the life time. In return, give us a fish down to 22"

Lets face it, larger Striped Bass, are not that good to eat, may in fact have heavy metals, such as Mercury. Certainly living to that age, should warrant these larger fish have specific laws ensuring their continued survival.

This website has shown some very large fish being released by many of our members, with pictures. Its simple, its the right thing to do. I do see less and less very large fish being displayed dead, in pictures, here on the Barn.

I also do not like seeing pictures with a dock lined with Large Stripers, all winter long in North Carolina. ( from charter boat fleets) These people are bringing home big bags of fillets that I am sure, do not taste so great a day or two later. I am sure they could easily be getting their limits with fish to 40", the rest go back.

I also am disturbed on how the commercial guys down there cull in order to bring in the larger fish to make up a daily limit.

As far as the EEZ is concerned, what disturbs me the most, is an "invisible" loss of freedom.
The freedom to chase fish wherever you darn well please to.

Presently, if I want to go offshore and catch a few Bluefish, or troll for late season Blue Fin, even Tog or Sea Bass fish, I feel I am being looked upon as a "cheater" for simply being offshore in my boat, chasing something other than Stripers.

That is what I mean when I stae "invisible" If I catch a couple of Stripers while casting bucktails for Bluefish, I should not have to feel guilty.

At the present time I think the EEZ is inherently wrong, the EEZ did do its job, time to make a change, plain and simple.

I think there are enough fish around to be able to sustain our most valuable fishery, make minor changes. Utilize capable people such as yourself in fisheries Management, with equal representation on Councils.

I realize its easy to take the popular side being expressed here by many of out members, I am sure there are plenty more out there who would like to see the EEZ opened up.

Captn Joe

[Reel-ality]

Interesting reading, but if you can't catch your limit without going to the EEZ I think you must be doing something wrong. On the other hand if they opened it up and made it legal I would fish there too. I don't think its fair not to be able to target Blues out there without fear of proscution for catching stripers on the same baits and lures. But this is only my opinion

[C-Fish]

There are some mistakes in terminology here, to start with. An MPA (Marine Protected Area)is any area that has special management provisions. This is not a bad thing. There are areas that prohibit specific commercial gear types that are damaging to habitat or only allow certain types of fishing to protect bottom species while not prohibiting trolling. The closure to longlining in the Straights of Florida, areas of the Gulf of Mexico and off South Carolina because those areas are nursery areas for immature swordfish and the interaction with billfish was so high is another positive use of an MPA.

What the RFA has fought tooth and nail is the imposition of arbitrary "Marine Reserves" that prohibit all fishing, commercial and recreational, without a clear scientific reason with a stated goal and a sunset provision. The environmental groups that have been pushing Marine Reserves, like off California and the one they want to stick on Stellwagen Banks off Massachusetts (there are many more on their agenda) are closures for the sake of stopping fishing with no real scientific purpose other than to see if it might make things better. RFA's contention is that what they are trying to accomplish with random, large scale closures can in almost all instances be accomplished through other management means if properly applied.

What the EEZ closure for striped bass represents is an MPA of sorts, but striped bass aren't the only fish that are managed by MPA in the EEZ. There are MPA's to protect codfish offshore of New England, rolling closure MPA's that have brought back the scallop fishing and made it one of the most profitable fisheries in the commercial sector, etc.

The EEZ was originally closed when emergency measures were put in place, moritoriums in Chesapeake Bay and draconian seasons and limits imposed in those states that allowed any harvest at all. At the time it was done to allow the states to strictly control the fisheries within their borders since striped bass management was accomplished through the ASMFC as a state water's fishery.

As the fishery started recovering, NMFS made its first push to reopen the EEZ in 1996 (I believe, but my memory ain't what it used to be). That was one of the first issues the RFA really fought when the organization was in its infancy. It was a bad idea then and it is, in my estimation and a lot of others who are concerned with the mounting fishing mortality the stocks are being subjected to, a bad idea now. You can make the case for quotas (there really is no recreational quota, just targets which we exceed on a regular basis)and other management tools, but keep in mind that managing a rebuilt fishery is something very new to ASMFC and NMFS. They have rebuilt so few that many who have been involved in the management process feel our ability to properly manage a healthy fishery is very much in question. I did nine years on the MAFMC and four years as a striped bass advisor to ASMFC in the eary years and near the end of my term the standing joke (which was really taken very seriously) was that it was much easier to manage a fishery back to health from dire straights than it was to try and figure out what to do once it was rebuilt!

The folks at the RFA, me included, feel the EEZ closure is sort of a lynch pin that the continued success of the plan hinges on. It's an important safety valve area that protects larger, mature striped bass from even more fishing pressure from both user groups at a time when we do not need to subject them to even greater mortality than they are sustaining right now. There is a lot of mortality of stripers in the EEZ in commercial fisheries currently going unreported because draggers and herring purse seiners working offshore areas are encountering more and more large bass out there. It's a good sign, but also a reason for concern.

If we open the EEZ, what do you think that will do to the fishery off North Carolina, which is already totally out of control and there is no enforcement in sight. There is a black market for stripers that is going pretty well now. Open the EEZ, where the major body of stripers are really holding during the winter months, and it will go off the laugh meter...guaranteed.

There are loads of good sounding reasons to reopen the EEZ so we can catch a few more bass (how many more do you really need with the spectacular fishing we have today???), but when you really stop and think about it is it the right thing to do. The repercussions could include an expanded directed commercial fishery (quotas or not), with more participants and more gear types targeting stripers. That will mean more high-grading (discarding smaller stripers dead when a commercial boat catches some bigger ones, in an effort to maximize their daily quota). As more boats get involved, the commercials start hollering for larger quotas, put on the political pressure.

Recreationally we are harvesting incredible numbers of bass, in case you haven't been watching the numbers, a killing a lot more through hook and release morality. The fish no longer carry the respect from most recreational anglers like they did just five or ten years ago. Everyone is a striper expert today because they can go out and catch them without knowing a whole lot. They're just meat to a growing number of anglers. Give me more is the watch word in a lot of the threads I read. Kill more and bigger fish. Two at 28 with a bonus? OK, you got it. Now how much more do you want. How many more big bass have to be tossed on the dock each day before it becomes too many and the stocks start dropping? If you know the history of the fishery we are fishing at levels the stocks have not been able to sustain in the past.

There are intense pressures on the stock and we don't have a clue how they will play out in the coming years. Growing disease problems in the nursery in the Chesapeake. Insufficient forage base in many areas. Unreported landings commercially and recreationally. The EEZ is a safety valve we need in place for the foreseeable future. Fight to keep it closed.

That's my two cents.

[Re-Bait]

How many people are chomping at the bit to hit the EEZ for stripers off of BL??? There's enough inshore for recreational anglers, and I can't see how this would change "....retailer of fishing bait and tackle as well as running charters this closure has a tremendous affect on my buisness".

This was instituted to save the fish from extinction. How would your biz be doing if stripers went away, which they effectively DID in the 80's???

[ 05-23-2006, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Re-Bait ]

[TWIN D'S]

so what we're really saying here is that fish managers and the fish mgmt system are obvious failures since it's necessary to close off large portions of ocean to fishing even though we have a fully recovered population. Yes??

OK the next fish we need to save, what are we gonna' close off then?

[C-Fish]

What I'm saying is fishery management is anything but an exact science. You can't shock the ocean to get a true count of how many fish are out there. It's done using input data and models called VPA (virtual population analysis).

Twin, can you call the rebuilding of the stock of stripers and obvious failure? Fishin' is pretty good, huh. But there are a lot of questions that go along with what we think we know and a lot of people feel we have already pushed the harvest to levels that, in the long term, are not sustainable.

[Guatemala Dave]

OK all I am hearing is that the science is no good, Unfortunately there is only one way to fix it. $$$$$$$$$$$$ which means the "L" word and as I implied that is for another time.

[Re-Bait]

Are you questioning the entire eastern seaboard EEZ, or just the area off of NJ?

[TWIN D'S]

Originally posted by C-Fish:


Twin, can you call the rebuilding of the stock of stripers and obvious failure? Fishin' is pretty good, huh. . No, I am not calling a rebuilt stock a failure, but at the same time, the credit for a rebuilt stock doesn't lay entirely at the feet of fish managers. After all, they don't make fish, only Nature does. A perfect example of this is the weakfish situation.

Back to the question at hand. If we have a rebuilt stock and a competent mgmt plan in place with quotas (comm), seasons and bag limits, why so much water closed off? Some are worried that fish thieves will steal the fish. I'm worried that this crap will expand. After all, if we do something "just because", well, almost anything can then happen "just because".

[CaptBob1966]

Dave,

You made some very key points and twin d's somed it all up with the word "FEAR".

How many people actually read the proposals by Tom Meyer besides the ones who said they did?

Option 3 gives everyone a chance to catch a fish that has been deemed fully recovered by the BEST AVAIABLE DATA AT HAND which is what NMFS has for the time being. Option 3 lets rec guys catch fish that contributes to the economy with any state as well as gives the comm. guys a chance to catch fish via HOOK & LINE only that will also contribute to the economy. Give this option a 2 year time period and see what the outcome is. At the end of the 2 years close the fishery to due stock assessment and evaluate what is happening.

The quotas are set for each state and if North Carolina doesn't play ball fairly then NMFS should bar them from the meetings until they come into compliance.

I don't want to see what happened in the 80's with stock closure but I also know that WE WILL NEVER KNOW THE OUTCOME IF WE DON'T TRY FOR A TIME PERIOD.

FEAR is an ugly word and it makes people do things without seeing the whole picture. Management is for working together and I don't see that here.

I also agree that there should be a slot fish and save the 28" plus fish to breed. It amazes me that we the rec's kill the larger fish when these are the ones that should be off limits.

I carry 100% Recreational fisherman and 90% of them who fish with us would like to have the oppurtunity to take at least 1 fish home with stripers. And to answer someone elses questions, NO YOU CAN'T ALWAYS GO OUT AND GET YOUR LIMIT!!

HOW MANY PEOPLE ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND THAT DON'T OWN THEIR BOATS WHAT IS HAPPENING?


StarfishBoats.com

[TWIN D'S]

Question; the jersey headboats. They have access to the fishery, but do they have "effective" access? Many of those guys and their patrons feel that they are shut out of the fishery. If we have a rebuilt population, why are they shut out?

[Bob ECT]

Thanks for the rationale thoughts C-Fish smile.gif

[seabear]

If the EEZ is open there will be a great market for appropriate tackle for fishing the open water areas. Boat manufactures will see a definate bump as more anglers upgrade for an easier ride to the fish. And even the back bay fish hunters like myself will have a better chance at the fish since more anglers will be headed offshore.
I find this quote interesting. In reading the "Preliminary Draft Analyses fo Federal Management Options in Response to Recommendations Contained in Amendment 6 to the ASMFC's Striped Bass Interstate Fisheries Management Plan" dated April 2006 the recreational impacts to option 1 states the exact opposite

"there is not expected to be a significant increase in the overall harvest of striped bass or a significant shift in fishing from state waters to the EEZ, by the recreational sector."

Under Economic Impacts it is stated "It is also unlikely that recreational fishers who are not currently fishing in the EEZ would purchase a new boat to catch the few striped bass allowed under state regulations".

I think at this time the EEZ should remain closed until we have more data to support the opening. The question of mortality and bycatch estimates increasing with the opening should not be answered by opening the EEZ. Management plans need to be risk adverse. If you think that there won't be increased pressure, there was a meeting in NC yesterday where the commcercial fishermen were calling for a larger quota of striped bass....wasn't this were the fish were hammered in the EEZ? They also said that State without a commercial fishery should not be on that management board, meaning that states like NJ would have no say on striped bass management! :mad:

[rackmaster]

If you fish from a boat the Striper fishery has rebounded. I fish from the beach for Stripers. I would like to see the EEZ stay closed until we have fish blitzing on the beaches again. Clearly with 500 anglers fishing IBSP on Saturday and 19 fish being landed we are not where we need to be in term of fish numbers. Stripers need to rebound to where they were in the 1960's before I will support opening areas that have helped the fish rebound.

[TWIN D'S]

Originally posted by seabear:
They also said that State without a commercial fishery should not be on that management board, meaning that states like NJ would have no say on striped bass management! :mad: No surprise there. Despite "gamefish status" being regarded as a panacea, few realize that in the game of "politics of exclusion" there is indeed a price to pay.