Fly Types ...and WHY!

[Frank Mihalic]

It seems we think of different fly types and are not aware of the correct nomenclature to support our favorite patterns: Check this out and PLEASE ADD as I am sure I will forget plenty!

A Surface fly: As the name describes, breaks the surface,or floats very near the surface of the water and sometimes pops through. Some type of floating material is usually used, as is a hook light enough to help its action. Soem type of foam or spun deer hair head adds bouyancy.
Examples: Poppers, Crease flys, surface sliders, clousers floating minnow, gurglers.

A Streamer fly: Follows the fly line to it's retreive depth. It has no sinking or floating charecteristics of it's own, to speak of. This fly gets all of it's action from the retreive you impart with your stripping speed and pause. Weighting a fly with lead wire wraps to keep it's action correct does not make it a non streamer. Wire wraps are sometimes needed to offset bouyant materials, or simply to keel a fly correctly in the water.

Examples: Deceiver, Surf Candys, HiTie Peanut Bunkers, Sar Mul Mac(heavy bucktail dressing and a wire wrapped shank).

Weighted flys have an added weighted head or eyes very near the front of the fly.
This weight gives the fly a darting motion during pauses in the retreive. These are usefull when fishing heavy current or when making a presentation to a deep holding fish. They are not as easy to cat as the non weighted flys, wich is why I tie these mostly small and sparse.

Examples: Joggy Fleye, CDM, Half & Half and others.

I hope this helps some new tyers separate form from function. An example of this confusion would be a tyer who uses a bead head before spun deer hair. Why add weight to a floating material? Doe's it searv a purpose in the design?

.....and more importatntly WHY did the tyer make it this way? If you are somwhat aware of the reasons, the answers will be more clear.

If not, BE SURE TO ASK !
Share your thoughts?

[sparse grey]

Frank My first thoughts are, you covered it completely. However I am not familiar with-clousers floating minnow-although it sounds good. Also CDM.?? I should probably be reading some current books. Thanks for a good post. Ron

[Splash]

Function first then form. The creators of the those pattern met the challenge of a certain set of conditions. Usually one of the ?popular? patterns will do it, they've been well thought out. The Fly Show is coming up and its interesting to talk with the tyers about their reasons for creating/tying a certain fly and how they fish it. Lots of tying tips you can apply to the patterns you tie. For beginers, K.I.S.S. A Clouser Minnow can imitate a fish, crab and shrimp when presented in different ways and tied in different sizes and colors. It?s the ?if I could only have one? fly. As a beginner I would tie up a whole box of just them. Then go to deceivers, candies and a few poppers. But eventually you will need some patterns with added weight or more buoyancy, volume, size to compensate for the effects of current and depth on your line and leader. I try to imagine where the fish are holding and ask - can I properly present this pattern in front of the fish? We?ve all fished a spot and said to ourselves ?if only I had one of those?. Something that went deeper , shallower or made more noise, lighter, darker, shinier etc. So you go home and tie that special fly for just that situation. Then you come back the next day and see if your plan worked. For me it's usually a slightly modified standard pattern with maybe a new thought about line selection or leader length. It?s a discipline to keep function before form. I have big bags of those special ?form? creations. Some are pretty, some are real ugly. Someday I?ll shave all those hooks and recycle them. I tied them before I knew what really works ;( It?s this special 1¼ oz Deep Banger Minnow!

Dave

[Fly Ty R]

Dave,
You gotta talk to Ray about copyright infringement with that 1 1/4oz Deep Banger Minnow! I think he already covered that angle with his tried and true steriod jiggies tongue.gif :D .

Fly Types:
If we all want to get TRUELY technical, we have to go back to the original nomenclature for fly types. I'm talking about the freshwater terms, dry flies and wet flies. Saltwater flyfishing is thought to have started when old time salmon anglers started catching striped bass (a junk fish) with their salmon flies. So in reality, saltwater fly fishing is only an extension of freshwater fly fishing, with heavier gear. In that sense, we need to look back to the freshwater terms for our flies.

The term "dry flies" covers all flies that float on or near the water's surface because of their inherent design. Dries include: flies imitating adult stages of aquatic insects (may, caddis, and stoneflies), terrestrial insects, poppers, sliders, and the like.

The term "wet flies" includes all other flies, such as flies imitating nymphs, pupae, other aquatic insects, dead terrestrial insects, shrimp (scuds), minnows, crayfish, salmon eggs, and other subsurface meals.

Poppers and sliders are pretty much the only dry flies used in saltwater. Everything else is wet fly fishing. Saltwater wet flies include streamers, jigs, invertebrate imitators (shrimp, crabs, sand fleas...), and other subsurface flies.

Is that technical enough??? :D

[Rowdy125]

nomenclature :confused:

neat word..

Heh.

Rory

[Brian E. Mullaney]

Me illeterate - had to use online dictionery.

Main Entry: no·men·cla·ture
Pronunciation: 'nO-m&n-"klA-ch&r also nO-'men-kl&-"chur, -'me[ng]-, -ch&r, -"tyur, -"tur
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin nomenclatura assigning of names, from nomen + calatus, past participle of calare
Date: 1610
1 : NAME, DESIGNATION
2 : the act or process or an instance of naming
3 a : a system or set of terms or symbols especially in a particular science, discipline, or art b : an international system of standardized New Latin names used in biology for kinds and groups of kinds of animals and plants
- no·men·cla·tur·al /"nO-m&n-'klAch-r&l, -'klA-ch&-/ adjective

[Frank Mihalic]

Originally posted by Rowdy125:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> nomenclature :confused:

neat word..

Heh.

Rory </font>[/QUOTE]every now and then I come up with a good one, huh?

[Frank Mihalic]

However I am not familiar with-clousers floating minnow-although it sounds good. Also CDM.?? Ron [/QB]Ron,
C louser
D eep
M innow...and there you have it


CFM looks like dees...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid97/p37440a0d62cf8b60a4bb3b0e2c8b546f/fa18fa46.jpg
That rusty hook is only because I never, ever use this fly ;) . It's a very good waking fly...not nearly as subtle as a deer hair slider bug moving across the surface..but not a splashy fly either.

[ 01-02-2004, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Frank Mihalic ]

[Splash]

dees what?

Pictures of them are rare.
Saw one live once, I think Bob was tying it at the show a few years ago.

[Frank Mihalic]

dees, you know...
like dat, dem and dose :D !
There goes that arid humor again ;) .

[Frank Mihalic]

Originally posted by Fly Ty R:
Dave,
You gotta talk to Ray about copyright infringement with that 1 1/4oz Deep Banger Minnow! I think he already covered that angle with his tried and true steriod jiggies tongue.gif :D .

Fly Types:
If we all want to get TRUELY technical, we have to go back to the original nomenclature for fly types. I'm talking about the freshwater terms, dry flies and wet flies. Saltwater flyfishing is thought to have started when old time salmon anglers started catching striped bass (a junk fish) with their salmon flies. So in reality, saltwater fly fishing is only an extension of freshwater fly fishing, with heavier gear. In that sense, we need to look back to the freshwater terms for our flies.

:D ;)
Dave, Sorry but I don't speak freshwater! ;)

Just kidding,,,Good point though, and I really never thought about it because as I kiddingly said, I really don't play freshwater :D !

[Flatwing]

To All,

Interesting posts above. I don't want to get to far off the original topic, but Frank's post about streamer retrieve methods and Fly Ty R's post about the roots of salt H20 FF caught my attention. IMO alot can be learned from the fundamentals used in salmon and river fishing and those techniques work well in the salt. It's real east to get caught up in all the latest and greatest hype with fast rods, shooting heads, hand over hand retrieve and sinking lines. A floating line and good line mending skills are valuable assets for presenting all types of fly's shallow or deep. Where category do epoxy's and corshair and siliskin fly's fall into?

Regards,
Flatwing

[Philly]

Don't forget the cross over patterns, flies like Crease Flies, Sliders or Siliclones(I tie them as dry flies). These work well both surface and subsurface.

[Fly Ty R]

Never tried the floating minnow. I've seen it plenty of times, though.

Frank,
I wouldn't expect you to know all the nitty-gritty of freshwater fly fishing. I mean, I really wouldn't expect ANYONE to know it. That's why I'm here, to provide an encyclopedia of useless, yet pertinent, information :D .

"Nomenclature": I had flash backs of taking the SAT's. NOOOOOOO!!!!!! ( And no, I'm not talking about flash back nymphs tongue.gif )

Rory,
I see your friend got another searun in the Squan not too long ago. Hasn't that same fish dried out by now??

Flatwing:
I couldn't agree more. When I started in saltwater, especially the back bays, I noticed tons of similarities to freshwater stream fishing. Having done 8 years of small stream and pond trout and bass fishing before even picking up a saltwater fly rod, it was pretty obvious the similarities. By the way, not to open a can of worms (even though this is a fly forum smile.gif ), some would say that epoxies, corsairs, and sili-skin flies aren't even flies at all, just lures that can be cast with a fly rod. I don't think that way, but some do.

Philly,
I don't know. Clones and creases might be in their own class. What about deer hair divers, like the Dahlberg Diver? They float at rest and dive upon retrieve. I think they are classed as dry flies, but I'm not sure. I think that any fly that floats because of it's inherent design (not just because it's bone dry upon first impact with the water) is considered a "dry fly", regardless if it goes under the water at times. Sometimes when I'm fishing, say, a Letort Hopper dry in pocket water, I'll dead drift it under the water when it becomes waterlogged so it resembles a drowning grasshopper, but that doesn't make the pattern a wet fly.

So who's ready for Somerset???? smile.gif :D tongue.gif

[Frank Mihalic]

Good topic to keep going...
Mending....I can't seem to learn this from a book. I need to fish with someone who can share this with me. I know what it is, but just am not sure where it applies in SWFF. Lil help?

[sparse grey]

Frank You have a spot on my boat anytime. Mending is not for fresh water only. Ron

[hipkvw]

Originally posted by Frank Mihalic:
Good topic to keep going...
Mending....I can't seem to learn this from a book. I need to fish with someone who can share this with me. I know what it is, but just am not sure where it applies in SWFF. Lil help? Its used a lot when dealing with waves and currents and IS NOT easy....although I never had anyone actually show me.

[Frank Mihalic]

Originally posted by sparse grey:
Frank You have a spot on my boat anytime. Mending is not for fresh water only. Ron Thank You, my freind!
How do you like the CFM?

[sparse grey]

Frank As always, your flies look good. Can think of a few times when I would have used something like that, but not many. as always, thanks for sharing. Ron

[Frank Mihalic]

Flys are funny like that....If I had one for everything, I would carry so many fly boxes!
Really though, I like this fly when the water is windblown a bit, and you want to leave a wake.
A surface slider is too sedate for that type of water, but I preferr it in glassy calm..

This year I plan to experiment with different size heads vs different sized hooks....we will see.

[Flatwing]

Frank,

What keeps alot of guys from mending is the fact that they use a sinking line. Can't mend it. I believe intermediate, sink tip and shooting head lines are way overated. How many guys do you know that cast plugs and catch big bass. Those plugs swim up high in the water column or on the surface. A floating line, good mending skills and presentations other than hand over hand will put a smile on your face and a large bass on the end of your line. If you are serious about fishing sometime I would be pleased to throw some loops with you (and share what I know about floating lines, mending and flatwings).

Regards,
Flatwing

[CapeMayRay]

Making changes in flies is what makes life interesting. Just like every rod and reel manufacutrer makes little differences in their products, it is fun to take a fly that works and change the color, pattern, or weight, have fun making it and then see how it works. If you aren't catching fish, stick to the flys as they were designed with proven colors, until you get your confidence up enought to play around.

It also depends on your style of fishing. I do most of my fishing from a boat, where distance is not my main concern. I fish water fairly deep with pretty strong current and like flys that are much heavier than most fly fishermen would consider standard. There are specific times and places that these altered flies seem to work. Other locations and conditions I am quite happy to use standard proven patterns and find they work perfectly well, after all, all the trial and error has been field tested out of them by those who have gone before, so if you change things, be careful not to destroy it. I say have some fun and see what works for you. It only matters what the fish think of your presentation and if they like it you have done a good job.

[Fly Ty R]

Flatwing,
Mending intermediate and sinking lines isn't impossible because I do it all the time. It's very tough, moreso with the sinker, and not for beginners, but it's possible and takes practice. I mend full sinking lines all the time to get very deep (over 20'). I don't mend the whole line (now THAT'S impossible smile.gif ), but I can mend enough of the running line to keep the drift drag free when on shore or in a stationary boat. Same with an intermediate.

Technically, every line out there today is overrated. All we really need is some heavy silk gut to throw the fly, but who uses that anymore?? :D Intermediates and sinkers have their places, just like floaters.

[Philly]

I agree with Fly Ty R, you can mend the various sinking lines. I use a sink tip fairly often when I fish the local streams here in SE PA. I'll start out with a floating line, but once I start fishing with minnow patterns, or crease flies then I'll usually switch over to the sink tip. Part of the reason is none of my minnow patterns are weighted other than the weight of the hook and the epoxy if I've used in on the fly. The fact I'm fishing in current requires that I mend the line if I want a decent drift before I start retrieving.
I won't dispute the fact that you catch fish with flies or lures on the surface or just under it, but I've dredged up a lot of fish by starting my retrieve much lower in the water column whether it be in 5 feet or 25 feet and retrieving the fly up through the column. You can also vary the depth of your retrieve by the speed of your retrieve, even with a depth charge sinking line. I'm certainly able to get retrieves in both fresh and saltwater that are only a foot or two under the surface using a depth charge sinking line, if I want to.

Flatwing:
Corsair and E-Body tube patterns are what my British friends call "lures". It would depend on a number of things, any weight or rattles added, how much epoxy used etc. With a light wire hook and little epoxy you might have something close to a neutral balance fly that will sink very slowly or even suspend in current.
Siliskin, the way the "gummy minnow" is tied it sinks so I guess it would be a wet fly/streamer. Now I tie mine a bit different, so mine will either float or sink, depending on how it's tied. One up on the boys from Virginia.

[hipkvw]

Saltwater Flyfishing is so new that everyone has an opinion on what is "the right" thing to do. I have heard Bob Pop talk about mending in the surf with floaters and intermediates. He explained the many uses and I have tried mending quite a bit when I practice. Its real tough fro me...im still a major beginner. Obviously you arnt going to use a sinking line in the surf too many times. Maybe from Jetties or banks with deep water a bit more. Some people think putting a fly line down 20' and drifting isnt fly fishing, some people think any fly with synthetics isnt a fly, I have seen debates on trolling flies, lobbing flies to pelagics, and even putting bait and scents on flies. I have only been getting into flyfishing about a year and a half but have read every Fly Fishing in SW and SW Flyfishing magazine since like 99'. So much stupid crap! My freind ties mediocre to plain nasty flies, cast like crap, and has caught so many bass and blues on a fly rod that I scratch my head at times. The technicalities plain annoy me at times.

[logic186]

In days gone by, you were not flyfishing unless you were fishing upstream with a floating fly. I have to agree with Hip, the technicalities are a pain and I tend to ignore most of them. I'm sure that the "experts" of the day frowned upon the first fisherman who tried an artificial lure instead of using bait. I find that mending line in an inlet or estuary that has signficant current, is very similar to mending line on a favorite trout stream. Mending line in the surf is a bit tricky, but definitely can be done effectively. I have not tried mending with a sinking line. I don't think you could be as effective trying to mend the sinker, but it would improve your drift or help get the fly deeper. I may give it a try if we get some decent weather weekends. Herring are loads of fun on the fly.

[Frank Mihalic]

I don't think that a saltwater fly fisherman could ever, ever be considered a purist BY ANY stretch of the imagination! Our reels could stop a tank. Our rods are light, powerfull and strong. Our flys, gear, boats...oh well, you all get the picture.

HIP: Sinking lines have their place in the surf! I cast a T-350 on the back beaches of CC as my standard line. It can be false cast with my 10wt and man, will it ever go!
They may not apply much here, but they sure do apply!

FW; I most certainly am serious! This past spring and summer I bacame a top water NUT and used a floater many times. I would apreciate some time when you could show me the mend technique.

[CapeMayRay]

It is the wide variety in fly fishing that makes it so exciting. With all the weights of rods and reels, types of lines, types of flies you have many options. Like humans fish eat a variety or foods. When fish are feeding almost any type of prsentation will do making it easy to choose a fly, rod weight and line that give you the excitement that you want. At times when they are not actively feeding you have to try and be more sensitive to what they are feeding on, where they might be and how to get you fly where they will see it.

This is where the variety of different flies comes in. I personally like to learn from others how they make flys that work for them and how they present them.

Like all fishing. There is always something new to learn. When I was younger I had my favorite methods, lures etc. With fly fishing I have my favorite rods and flies. I know what works for me now, but who knows, I may find a new fly or way of working a fly that will become my new favorite. Don't be afraid to try all the estabished patterns and methods and don't be afraid to experiment. Decide for yourself what you get out of the fishing, and what gets you excited and always keep an open mind.

I have had a number of people that only freshwater trout fished, out this summer. They seem to adapt to the heavier weight rods, our heavier lines and flies, and they really get excited about our larger saltwater fish. Never had one complain that it was not real fly fishing, especialy with the size of the fish. It is just alittle different.

Hip, how can you go out in your boat without a fly rod? You got to pack that in first. It really isnt real fly fishing when you are using a spin rod. :D :D :D

[Frank Mihalic]

I went on many, many trips this year when I did not bring any other tackle other than fly.
When conditions deteriorate, you either evolve into a better caster, or you stay home more than you go fishing.
After all,
It's the only way to....FLY:D!