Back Bay Flounder Massacre...Perpetrator apprehended

[Keeper Seeker]

Last night... the perp... Marone saxatilis.
length...31"
girth... massive

Apprehended by yours truly, and when taken in for cleaning was found to be in posession of over 30 baby flounders ranging in size from 2" to 6.5".

After consuming said flounder, the fish then took my curlytailed minnow, on 5/8 oz. leadhaed, while being bounced on the bottom.

Penalty for such will be for said Bass to serve as dinner for my family on three separate occasions this winter. smile.gif


:cool: What's in your Bass??? :cool:

[fish_on]

LOL!!!! To funny Keeper!! Too funny!!!!!!

[fisher224]

Do you have to throw that fish back to comply with the size and season regs for flounder??????

[Pop Up]

ks,

Is it where i think it was? I have not been to that spot for awhile now, i figured that the bait left, those cheap dogs!

[aimless2]

Had a 29 today with 9 flounder in it. Back Bay :eek:

[Dr. Bass]

Aimless
Saw you heading out to the Lump today, any luck?? Did you check out 20th street surf??

[Bawugna]

What type of flounder were they?

[CaptG]

Nice report, but it's pretty sad those trash pits have to resort to eating flounder. I too am interested to know if they are baby summer or winter flounder. Either way, it's not good for either fish. When our flounder fishing goes to s*#t, i hope the bass elitists are happy :rolleyes: We need to bring back the bunker or increase the pressure on the striped bass or they'll eat all our other prized gamefish!

[ 12-29-2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: CaptG ]

[Captn Joe]

CaptG,
I read in another post that the fish were Winter Flounder, that has got to be a positive sign, for the Blackbacks. I remember as a kid on party boats we would see them up to 4 to 5lbs on the wreck trips, often the pool winner was a Winter Flounder.
As much as you and I like Flatfish, we should put an Alaska trip together for Halibut, catching them is fun, you got to shoot them before you pull the bigger ones aboard. Better yet, the Atlantic Halibut gets much larger than its Pacific cousin, up to a 1,000 pounds. I would like to see something done with those fish, to bring them back. Sad that they were about fished to extinction. I used to see them in the Scallop dredge, caught a few right here off of Cape May, over the years, but it was rare to see them at all.
Captn Joe

[CaptG]

Capt. Joe

A fishing trip to Alaska is my dream vacation. We'll have to see about getting a trip organized to get out there for those Barn Doors, Salmon and whatever else we can catch or shoot :D . Yea, a return of the Atlantic Halibut would be nice. Man are they tasty too.

I would think they are summer fluke in the bass, especially down south, but i agree the winter flounder pops have been on the rise, which is good. We did well the past two springs behind LBI on em to 3 lbs.

[Esox1]

I recommend Alaska fishing to anyone. This year will be my fifth year in a row. I can't see myself stoping. July 9-July 16 this year. I have a boat for the week where me and two friends will be catching king and sockeye salmon. We also will be chartering a halibut boat. I have been on two halibut trips where we caught hailbut over 100 lbs. One was harponed and one was shot. One of my greatest fishing memories was when the mate told the captain to "get the gun".

[Esox1]

I recommend Alaska fishing to anyone. This year will be my fifth year in a row. I can't see myself stoping. July 9-July 16 this year. I have a boat for the week where me and two friends will be catching king and sockeye salmon. We also will be chartering a halibut boat. I have been on two halibut trips where we caught hailbut over 100 lbs. One was harponed and one was shot. One of my greatest fishing memories was when the mate told the captain to "get the gun".

[Captn Joe]

Capt G.
give me a year or two then I will be ready. My next trip to an exotic location will be Costa Rica, fall of 2004. I have always wanted to return to Alaska to fish Halibut/Salmon/Trout/ Rockfish and Ling Cod. I like eating the Reds (Sockeye) they come in around June to middle of July. That is when the weather is the best out there as well. We should start gathering info, to make a decision. ( someday) There is alot to choose from, I want a guy who will let me kill my limits and Vacuum Seal it for return. That is important as they fly you into alot of these remote places and you can carry only so much out due to weight restrictions. Ft Washington show would be a good place to start, I can ask to the right questions.
I have read enough today about fish reports I am heading down to fish Wed or Thursday.
Captn Joe

[Captn Joe]

ESOX1
welcome to the Bass Barn, tell us about who you are using for these trips.
Thanks,
Captn Joe

[Esox1]

I stay at the riverbend resort on the kenai river.You can catch rainbow trout and dolly varden right at the resort. Also,sockeye salmon fresh from the cook inlet and king salmon right in front of the lodge. I chose the riverbend resort because you can rent your own boat for the king salmon without using a guide. The staff is great and prices are reasonable. Their web site is kenairiverbend.com

[chunking]

It happens every year with the stripers in the back bays.
Two years ago we had the grandady of all when we had one striper with 53 baby flounder stuffed inside.
From the size of the mouth they were summer flounder and not winter.
I was actually glad to see the back bay striper rune slow down early this season due to water temps.
The stripers are fine in the early part od Fall when they are chasing shiners, mullet and peanuts all over the place.
When the water reaches a certain point the baitfish move out and the stripers move to the bottom. Thats when you see them feeding on the flounder and lots of spider crabs.
With that big fat lower lip they just push around in the sand and mud and scare the little flounder into showing themselves.
From what I have found out this years summer flounder don't migrate out. They winter over in the back bays for protection.
With the stripers in the back we end up with the wolf baby sitting the sheep.
I know that nature has a plan to keep things in balance but so far all I see is everything big eats everything small.

[Captn Joe]

chunking,
thanks for clearing that up for me, I can only say, that I saw a strong sign of these little guys in the minnow traps at Avalon. More than I normally would see. I guess there is alot of these in the back there, and I am sure there will be a big recruitment in 3 to 4 years, however long it take for them to be 16 1/2 inches. To bad we can't get the Stripers to eat all the Sea Weed on the bottom.
Question - do you know of way to catch a Mantis Shrimp? I want one in my tank, as long its not the kind that shatter the glass, or I'll put it in a Plexiglass one.
Esox1,
Thanks, sounds about what I am looking for, I love eating those Dolly's, even if your frowned upon for keeping a few, the way I figure it, its my decision to make, not an outfitter's, since the Dolly's are an ocean run fish, that follow the Salmon into the streams. Did you encounter any problems bringing your fish home? I have been in Homer a few times, Salty Dog Saloon, on the spit, what a place! We used to go there to make minor Hull repairs on the Tidal Grid, which is right behind the Salty Dog.
Captn Joe

[Esox1]

First, let me say that I put a dollar on the wall at the Salty Dog in Homer. I wrote "Ed/John 50lb king". Great place. I am going to surf fish Homer this year.
My parents have a house on the bay in Sea Isle. I fish Avalon back bay also. The blues were crazy this past spring.
I think you would have to buy the Mantis shrimp. Ask the fish store to order it for you.
I think the flounder size will be 17 next year.

[chunking]

Hey Captn Joe.

I had two at one time and I caught both of them on a small hook in early Spring.

For an idea on their size I have the front leg with the spines on it in my office. This is where I hooked one of them and it fell off. When stretched straight it measures just under four inches long.

I understand they dig holes in the bottom and hide in them. I believe thats how come we see so many in flounder stomachs. The flounder just lay in front of the hole and when the mantis shrimp comes out the flounder just inhales it. The shrimp cant use its long killer legs when its trapped inside the flounder.

I have set all kinds of traps in many locations and never caught one yet. I have pulled sein nets along sandbars and seen them dart out in front of me and never caught one yet. Piece of squid on a #12 hook and I catch two. Go figure.

I want one for my tank also. I intend to spend some time this spring trying for the mantis. If I find a way I will let you know.

One note of interest. When I was a little kid I remember my father pulling in a glass soda bottle that had been laying on the bottom for some time. When he poured the water out something came out alive. I remember it wasn't a fish and it wasn't anything my father had ever seen before. I think it may have been a mantis shrimp. Perfect size opening. May be worth a try to tie one or two on some string and let it lay on the bottom for a few weeks in the spring. Thats probably when they move around looking for new locations. Just may be able to pick up a squatter that way. :D

[Esox1]

Sorry Captain Joe, the dollies are unbelievably easy to catch on the kenai. They are like rats. The best way to catch them is with fresh salmon eggs - not cured. Sardine chunks also work. The regulation is normally 2 per person. The resort where I stay vacum packs one 65lb case of fish per person as part of the package. I learned how to filet the kings. The people at the resort call me "guide worthy" because I have caught a few kings myself. This means I have to back troll then bring the fish to the boat and net it without crashing into another boat. All alone.

[Saltshaker]

Hey Keeper Seeker, I have seen in some older New England Bass tackle catalogs baby flounder lures.
I think they were designed for slow trolling. Has anybody else seen them before?

Tight Lines & Safe Returns,
Saltshaker

[CaptG]

double!

[ 12-29-2003, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: CaptG ]

[CaptG]

Sounds good Capt. Joe. Thanks Esox1 and i agree Joe, i wan't to keep all my meat!!!

Chunking, i thought they were summer flounder harboring in hte back for the winter. I would think a juvenille fluke that entered the back as larvae in the spring is just too small by the fall to make the migration east w/ their parents?

Chunking anytime you need help cleaning them trash pits out of the back let me know. I'd like to help.

[Keeper Seeker]

Don't know if they were winter or summer flounder, I think they were right handed. One was definately different from the rest, I think it was left handed, lighter coloration and spotted, and more round in shape.

I've seen those baby flounder lures in catalogues before.

I have rigged a couple black sassy Shad sideways. Might try bouncing them on the bottom tonight. Gonna do all I can to save all those babies Flounder the next couple nights.

[Captn Joe]

chunking,
thanks for the tips, I like the soda bottle trick.
Esox1,
Yes its Salmon eggs for Dolly's, I used to live in Kodiak, had all the fish I could ever eat, and still, like catching the Dolly's and cooking them up by the stream. I'd bring home a whole bunch to smoke, if they let me. Looks like you drive into Soldotna from Anchorage?. I'll bring my Vacuum Sealer for the overage in fish I want to bring home.
Captn Joe

[cee beaver]

i know this is the wrong forum, but how about a bus excursion up to the helen h

at least we could catch cod

just a thought

happy holidays........the beav

[aimless2]

Dr. bass, nothing at the lump or a wreck we tried. :confused: :mad: :(

[Captn Joe]

Beav,
How about a Sea Bass Trip on The Big Jamaica?
We tried the Helen H thing last year, a couple guys did end up going and they loaded up.
Captn Joe

[Keeper Seeker]

Capt Joe, Is it the winter Flounder that you are calling Blackbacks?

I'm just looking in a book and the winter Flounder is lighter and more rounded than the summer. More like the oddball in the belly. Or are the color differences because of the bottom that they were photographed on? The summer in the photo is much more spotted than the ones in the bass, but there are pebbles on the bottom where it is laying. The darker ones in the bass were solid in color.

Which is which, right or left, winter or summer? Does Summer have a pointier head or jaw?

[Captn Joe]

Keeper Seeker,
Blackback's is the Winter Flounder's name from the marketplace in New England. When we came in from our Commercial Fishing trips, our catch was sold at The New Bedford Auction and they were called Blackback Flounder.
Captn Joe

[Sea Devil]

now thats a trip i would love to do

alaska with teh river all the fish you could wanna catch i want a barn door

[Keeper Seeker]

Cap, Does one have a piontier jaw than the other? These babies were all dark, and more oblongular with a piontier lip except one. It was noticably different, rounder in shape. Wish I took more notice if they were right or left hand.

K.S.

[BBunker]

Hell, If you can buy TURDUCKEN. Why not catch FLOUNIPERS? Kinda cuts out the middleman hugh! :D ;)

[Esox1]

Yes, CaptJoe I fly into Anchorage and rent a car then drive about 3 hours thru the mountains to Soldotna. Actually, I called Alaska last night to confirm my reservation. The person who runs the lodge said the sockeye should be in around the 11th of July. Right on time.
Going to hit Potter county this weekend for deer/archery. I have to take advantage of the weather. No deer yet this year although I did get a 332lb bear from Potter.

[Esox1]

I am having a little trouble posting - this may be a double.
Yes, captJoe Anchorage to Soldotna - about 3 hours thru the mountains.
Potter county this weekend for deer/archery. No deer from Potter this year but I did get a 332lb bear.

[Captn Joe]

Esox,
Ever been to "Good Time Charlie's" ?? Thanks for your help, its been very imformative. Good luck on the deer
Captn Joe

[ 12-30-2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Captn Joe ]

[Capt Harv]

I wouldn't be too alarmed at the finding of young flounder in the bellies of stripers. Summer flounder spawn on the edge of the continental shelf where they overwinter. The young larvae swim with the spring tide currents back to the back waters where they will remain till they are about 2 years old, when they join the migratory group. The fact that you see the young flounder in stripers bellies is a sign that the flounder stocks are in good supply. The worry that stripers feeding in the back waters this time of year are depleting the flounder stock is totally unwarranted. Maryland crabbers blame stripers for the poor blue crab harvest. The blue crab claw harvest plummetted from years of excess crabbing, going as far as dredging these crabs out of the sand in the winter months.
We are fortunate that both the striper population and flounder populations are in relatively good numbers. Stripers have been eating baby flounder for eons of time, long before modern fishing began. Many young fish live in the back waters till they are old enough to join the migratory fish. These include stripers, flounder, drum, etc.
The more baby flounder seen in the stripers bellies means the better the spawning year was for the flounder! No need to worry or blame the stripers.

[Esox1]

Captn Joe - Good time Charlies ? Never heard of it . OK, yes I have been there. I went on two occasions. This is my year this year. I don't want any distractions which means no booze. Last year I did not drink until the last day. I am going to try not to drink at all. It cost alot of money to go to Alaska. I can drink and go to a strip club in Philly. Like I tell my friends "I am hear to fish".

[Esox1]

Captn Joe - Good time Charlies ? Never heard of it . OK, yes I have been there. I went on two occasions. This is my year this year. I don't want any distractions which means no booze. Last year I did not drink until the last day. I am going to try not to drink at all. It cost alot of money to go to Alaska. I can drink and go to a strip club in Philly. Like I tell my friends "I am hear to fish".

[CaptG]

Capt. Harv

I agree this shows that the fluke had a good spawn. I guess i really just don't like striper fishing that much :D The limits are rediculous, especially now that we lost the slot, they are sometimes too easy to catch, we are warned not to eat more than one fish a month as it could be detrimental to our health and for god's sake striper season crowds the waterways and "spots, especially the rips" mainly because because you can't fish the EEZ and it brings all the weekend warriors out like mad. I know i'm in the minority here, but I much rather prod the bottom for flatfish :cool:

[fmTuna]

I remember a couple of years ago when we took a trip up to the Cape & RI that the B&T's were selling a soft rubber that they just couldn't keep in stock... yep. brown baby flounder...

[Old Salt 529]

maybe this explaines why there isn't a lot of flounder or weak fish around. Maybe they sould increase the limits on the take of stripers. If they don't I think the only thing that's going to be left out there to catch will be the striper.

[Keeper Seeker]

Capt. Harv, Thanks for the reasuring post. You are the voice of reason. Let's drink a toast... My glass is also half full. ;) smile.gif

Cheers!

[chunking]

I can hold my own in the ocean. I love the rips and know them well. It's the back bays where I feel the most confident. I have fished them and watched them for nearly 50 years. Stripers still scare me.

In all those years I have never seen the numbers of striper in the back that I do now. I have caught just about everything the back can offer and I have never seen anything devour baby flounder like a striper.

Two years ago two of us caught around twenty stripers in the beginning of December. Of the six we kept we found 72 baby flounder in their stomachs. That was six fish and one meal each. I just sat at the dock and tried to imagine how many stripers were feeding in the back.

From North Wildwood to Cape May there could be thousands. These fish are back there in force from October through December and even longer if the water temps hold.

Every time we fished we found baby flounder in their stomachs. Sometimes less sometimes more than than the day we counted.

I know these are not accurate numbers but it's all I have to go on. If in that stretch of water there are a thousand stripers and they eat 12 baby flounder a day each and they stay in the back for 90 days then they can consume over 1,000,000 baby flounder a season.

I know there is a high mortality rate among juvinile fish. I also know that for a flounder to reach around 3 inches it has run a fierce gauntlet of filter feeders, and every fish eater in the water.

Now they are in the back bays for protection. Along comes the hoover striped bass and it starts sucking them up like potato chips. I just can't believe that this is a good thing for any fishery.

I would feel a lot better knowing there are a million more baby flounder swimming aroud at about four inches next spring than fat stripers.

It does prove that there are a lot of mature flounder reproducing. For that we should be happy. Do the flounder or for that matter us need a super predator like the striper sitting in their nursery.

Like I said before I have studied the back bays for many years and I fear for the flounder population down the road.

I know crabbers have said the same thing and I don't buy it for a minute. I believe what I see and I just don't see that many blue claws inside stripers.

When the commercial fishery drags the crabs out of the mud in the winter. When every potter is out there when the crabs come out of hybernation in the spring. Everyone points their finger at the striper.

I can't think of any indusry that is as self destructive as the crab industry. Thousands of crab pots catching crabs 24/7. Those same pots catching many other forms of marine life that never survive.

To the state it doesn't matter what size the crabs are for indicating the health of the resource. If there are lots of crabs then the resource is in good shape. So what if the crabs are two or three inches across. They are small because the potters have sucked so many keepers out of the bays that thats all the recreational fisherman has to catch when we take the kids out.

Sometime in March the crab floats will start to dot the back bays. When the crabs come out of the mud there won't be much to eat. Thank god we have the commercial pots with bait otherwise they would just scatter around where we could all catch some.

When the crabs show the back will become saturated with commercial pots. Point the finger at the striper. I'm sure a striper wants nothing more than to try to fit a large blueclaw with popeye arms and face ripping claws into it's mouth. If the stripers are eating the blueclaws then why aren't they picking on the small crabs that are defensless. Why is it that when people go crabbing they catch lots only few keepers.

As long as draggers and potters are allowed to take them all they will. The recreational crabber is allowed to keep a bushel a day. If you want to get that bushel and take the kids out for a fun day then you better do it in April. Otherwise all the commer, excuse me, all the stripers will eat them. :mad: :mad:

I need to get off this subject before I get mad but like I said before. I can only go by what I see. I see far too many baby flounder inside stripers to feel good about it and not nearly enough blueclaws to blame them.

[CaptG]

Chunking i agree w/ you. I've been trying to tell people for years, that the striper are too thick, but it seems people hold the almighty striper up on a pedastal above all other fish. I don't think people get that the downfall of the striper in the 80's was more due to polution in the spawning grounds than overfishing. Yet, all i ever hear are arguments for more strict limits, C&R, more big fish etc. yet, every year we are seeing more and more striped bass where it's now to the point that fishing for them isn't even a challenge on most days. We've been conserving the species for decades now w' strict bag limits and now that they are in abundance, still no increase in our bag limits or decrease in size limits in fact, it's going the other way. When will it end? when all there is to fish for is bass? Or are we just being set up by the NMFS to allow continual increases in commercial quotas? I don't get why some recs. don't wan't their share of this fishery and don't get if they don't wan't it it will go to the comms. in the long run.

[ 01-04-2004, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: CaptG ]