83% of doctors 'have considered quitting' over obamacare...

[tveye52]

What would make you suggest or relate to alcohol Traits of the liberal mind

Just making a simile. You know what that is don't you?

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis)[1] is a political ideology or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality.[2] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally liberals support ideas such as free markets, constitutionalism, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights and the free exercise of religion.[3][4][5][6][7]

There are worse things to believe in.

[Sir Reel]

Lots of things being thrown around here. I'm just at the beginning of my medical career. Granted I am in academic medicine, but I would say the 83% is a touch high... although depending on what "have considered quitting" means, I guess I may fall within that as well... but the reality is I won't be leaving any time soon. And neither will the vast majority of physicians.

I don't really think that there are that many less people wanting to go into medicine. Actually the reports I have read over the last several years were showing an increase in applications due to the fact that the short term economy looks so bleak that the I-bankers and the like didn't see a return in it, and found that going into medicine was actually more stable. One of my room mates felt that way... he was Econ major at a very prestigious college and interned at Goldman. But overall, the sentiment is surely there that the more things fall, the less you will eventually have applying (especially if the economy improves), and the worse applicants that will get in.

I think it is still a field that parents push their kids to go into, and yes, even the HYP'ers. I lived with a number of Ivy Leaguers even at Jefferson, which certainly doesn't have the pedigree of some medical schools. Difference is, true high class (by which I mean >500k/ year) kids and parents realize that their lifestyle almost certainly will not be sustained by going into medicine. The future just isn't ripe to get rich in it for the vast majority. Not to say we will be poor, but the money isn't there that once was. I don't think it takes a HYP'er to be a great doctor... frankly one better connected with the average guy will probably serve their patients better. I think rather than a noble field for a kid from a rich family, it is a great middle class profession. And I don't think we are losing anything because of that. Might actually be gaining some initiative.

But as far as salaries go, they are dropping, there is no doubt about it. Using an interventional cardiologist as a measuring stick? Please. Sure they make over 300k. They are super specialists. It is incredibly competitive to become one and it takes years and years of training even after medical school: 3-4 years internal medicine residency, 3 years cardiology fellowship, and 1 year interventional fellowship if I'm not mistaken. All this time, they are making about 50k per year. So the average person who goes straight through school is 34 before they can make a physician's salary. And your friend who works 3 days a week as an anesthesiologist making 300k? Does that happen? Sure. Anesthesia is also know as one of the cushiest fields of medicine. But the average salary is closer to 250, and they work 5 days a week with call.

Call once a month as a surgeon is a joke... I know plenty of docs who take Q2 call... that's every other day. And, I would say of those who are in a field that requires call, every 4-5 days is average.

Insurance simply doesn't cover all lawsuits... your butt is on the line with the ridiculous awards that are given. And even if your coverage is enough, your premium goes up the next year and you definitely do take a hit.

The average doctor graduates with 180k in debt. Many, including myself, are much much higher. And the average salary of primary care doctors is in the mid 100s. I think the average salary overall is around 250k. Starting salaries are average closer to 180k.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I couldn't do anything else. I'll have a comfortable lifestyle. But don't tell me that I'm rich and don't have any idea about what anyone else goes through.

[GetReel]

Lots of things being thrown around here. I'm just at the beginning of my medical career. Granted I am in academic medicine, but I would say the 83% is a touch high... although depending on what "have considered quitting" means, I guess I may fall within that as well... but the reality is I won't be leaving any time soon. And neither will the vast majority of physicians.

I don't really think that there are that many less people wanting to go into medicine. Actually the reports I have read over the last several years were showing an increase in applications due to the fact that the short term economy looks so bleak that the I-bankers and the like didn't see a return in it, and found that going into medicine was actually more stable. One of my room mates felt that way... he was Econ major at a very prestigious college and interned at Goldman. But overall, the sentiment is surely there that the more things fall, the less you will eventually have applying (especially if the economy improves), and the worse applicants that will get in.

I think it is still a field that parents push their kids to go into, and yes, even the HYP'ers. I lived with a number of Ivy Leaguers even at Jefferson, which certainly doesn't have the pedigree of some medical schools. Difference is, true high class (by which I mean >500k/ year) kids and parents realize that their lifestyle almost certainly will not be sustained by going into medicine. The future just isn't ripe to get rich in it for the vast majority. Not to say we will be poor, but the money isn't there that once was. I don't think it takes a HYP'er to be a great doctor... frankly one better connected with the average guy will probably serve their patients better. I think rather than a noble field for a kid from a rich family, it is a great middle class profession. And I don't think we are losing anything because of that. Might actually be gaining some initiative.

But as far as salaries go, they are dropping, there is no doubt about it. Using an interventional cardiologist as a measuring stick? Please. Sure they make over 300k. They are super specialists. It is incredibly competitive to become one and it takes years and years of training even after medical school: 3-4 years internal medicine residency, 3 years cardiology fellowship, and 1 year interventional fellowship if I'm not mistaken. All this time, they are making about 50k per year. So the average person who goes straight through school is 34 before they can make a physician's salary. And your friend who works 3 days a week as an anesthesiologist making 300k? Does that happen? Sure. Anesthesia is also know as one of the cushiest fields of medicine. But the average salary is closer to 250, and they work 5 days a week with call.

Call once a month as a surgeon is a joke... I know plenty of docs who take Q2 call... that's every other day. And, I would say of those who are in a field that requires call, every 4-5 days is average.

Insurance simply doesn't cover all lawsuits... your butt is on the line with the ridiculous awards that are given. And even if your coverage is enough, your premium goes up the next year and you definitely do take a hit.

The average doctor graduates with 180k in debt. Many, including myself, are much much higher. And the average salary of primary care doctors is in the mid 100s. I think the average salary overall is around 250k. Starting salaries are average closer to 180k.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I couldn't do anything else. I'll have a comfortable lifestyle. But don't tell me that I'm rich and don't have any idea about what anyone else goes through.

You summed it up when you called it a "great middle class profession" -- I would add the word "upper" before "middle class," but that is a quibble. It is. And you chose to go in to it and that is great too. But the fact that this is what it is for most doctors (except a few world class heart and brain surgeons and a couple other kinds of specialists) has ramifcations. Some people chosing between middle class professions will be influenced by the fact that one requires years of study, a residency, years of bulding a practice, often long hours especially at the beginning, and the presure of sometimes life and death decsions (even if GP who sees certain symptoms and is not himself/herself treatingn them may be making a life and death decision when he/she determines whether and when to refer the patient to a specialist). The fact that the doctors' monetary reward for that is to make perhaps 50% more than another upper middle class profession without those "drawbacks," which incoime is then taxed at a higher marginal tax rate, cannot help but enter into the decision making process for some people and to the extent it does, it is obviously a discouragement that reduces the number of people wanting to be doctors.

[aquasport190]

Obviously you have trouble reading. I posted earning statistics that indicate that other professionals actually make a lot less than doctors. It takes quite a bit of willful ignorance to to deny the existence of facts, but you seem to have buckets full of the stuff.

You posted earning statistics. Whoopie. That's real world experience there. How many people, who are actually working in the field, do you need to hear from before you get it?

Are you just "messing with the fisherfolk"? You're making yourself look foolish and ignorant.

By the way, did you catch that dead baby that was thrown to you in anatomy class? What a tool.

[tveye52]

Lots of things being thrown around here. I'm just at the beginning of my medical career. Granted I am in academic medicine, but I would say the 83% is a touch high... although depending on what "have considered quitting" means, I guess I may fall within that as well... but the reality is I won't be leaving any time soon. And neither will the vast majority of physicians.

I don't really think that there are that many less people wanting to go into medicine. Actually the reports I have read over the last several years were showing an increase in applications due to the fact that the short term economy looks so bleak that the I-bankers and the like didn't see a return in it, and found that going into medicine was actually more stable. One of my room mates felt that way... he was Econ major at a very prestigious college and interned at Goldman. But overall, the sentiment is surely there that the more things fall, the less you will eventually have applying (especially if the economy improves), and the worse applicants that will get in.

I think it is still a field that parents push their kids to go into, and yes, even the HYP'ers. I lived with a number of Ivy Leaguers even at Jefferson, which certainly doesn't have the pedigree of some medical schools. Difference is, true high class (by which I mean >500k/ year) kids and parents realize that their lifestyle almost certainly will not be sustained by going into medicine. The future just isn't ripe to get rich in it for the vast majority. Not to say we will be poor, but the money isn't there that once was. I don't think it takes a HYP'er to be a great doctor... frankly one better connected with the average guy will probably serve their patients better. I think rather than a noble field for a kid from a rich family, it is a great middle class profession. And I don't think we are losing anything because of that. Might actually be gaining some initiative.

But as far as salaries go, they are dropping, there is no doubt about it. Using an interventional cardiologist as a measuring stick? Please. Sure they make over 300k. They are super specialists. It is incredibly competitive to become one and it takes years and years of training even after medical school: 3-4 years internal medicine residency, 3 years cardiology fellowship, and 1 year interventional fellowship if I'm not mistaken. All this time, they are making about 50k per year. So the average person who goes straight through school is 34 before they can make a physician's salary. And your friend who works 3 days a week as an anesthesiologist making 300k? Does that happen? Sure. Anesthesia is also know as one of the cushiest fields of medicine. But the average salary is closer to 250, and they work 5 days a week with call.

Call once a month as a surgeon is a joke... I know plenty of docs who take Q2 call... that's every other day. And, I would say of those who are in a field that requires call, every 4-5 days is average.

Insurance simply doesn't cover all lawsuits... your butt is on the line with the ridiculous awards that are given. And even if your coverage is enough, your premium goes up the next year and you definitely do take a hit.

The average doctor graduates with 180k in debt. Many, including myself, are much much higher. And the average salary of primary care doctors is in the mid 100s. I think the average salary overall is around 250k. Starting salaries are average closer to 180k.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I couldn't do anything else. I'll have a comfortable lifestyle. But don't tell me that I'm rich and don't have any idea about what anyone else goes through.

Thank you. I really appreciate someone who can put together a multi -paragraph response, develop your thoughts and make a point.

My calling doctors cry babies was a bit overblown, and maybe the circle of doctors that I know are a bit insulated by their positions. At my age, friends are at the late stage of their careers and have also, for the most part, invested well.

[GetReel]

Thank you. I really appreciate someone who can put together a multi -paragraph response, develop your thoughts and make a point.

My calling doctors cry babies was a bit overblown, and maybe the circle of doctors that I know are a bit insulated by their positions. At my age, friends are at the late stage of their careers and have also, for the most part, invested well.

So when Sir Reel repudiated your argument you were persuaded, but when lots of other people said the same thing you were not persuaded? Sir Reel is obviously is very persuasive.

[Sean Manni]

[QUOTE=tveye52;2976277]Yes, the figures I mention are net pay.QUOTE]


NO WAY...I call BS. Stats on income are always listed as gross pay - there is no way of predicting the effects of taxes and other deductions to show a true net average.

Also - family care docs DO NOT walk away with 175k on average any more, and havent for a few years now. The smart one's do, the one's that own the practice do - but your average employee family care doc - NO WAY.

[CaptG]

Just making a simile. You know what that is don't you?

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis)[1] is a political ideology or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality.[2] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally liberals support ideas such as free markets, constitutionalism, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights and the free exercise of religion.[3][4][5][6][7]

There are worse things to believe in.

The highlighted is a big crock of cr^p and you know it. If all this were things the typical liberal actually supported they would be a lot more tolerant of the right who are the ones actually trying to preserve these things.

You are a lost individual TV

[OldTimingFisherMan]

The highlighted is a big crock of cr^p and you know it. If all this were things the typical liberal actually supported they would be a lot more tolerant of the right who are the ones actually trying to preserve these things.

You are a lost individual TV

That definition has not been true for decades. The founding fathers were liberals in their day. Today's liberals want the exact opposite of what they envisioned.

[aquasport190]

the one's that own the practice do

The guy who owns the practice has the most overhead, though. That cuts deeply into the gross. Malpractice, CAT fund, office rent, supplies and equipment, salaries, bennies for employees, insurance on the business, etc....

My dad was a surgeon who had a private practice. As the years went by he made less and less until he finally threw in the towel. He was never a cry baby. And he is smarter, more disciplined and more motivated than a clown like tveye will ever be.

[GetReel]

My high school aged son had some friends over yesterday and in the process of making some small talk about their upcoming plans (most are applying to college this fall and a couple are starting college) I asked whether kids these days are considering medicine as a profession. They just laughed.

[Jerry Anton]

That definition has not been true for decades. The founding fathers were liberals in their day. Today's liberals want the exact opposite of what they envisioned.

The proper description is no longer liberal but liberal progressive. The progressive movement is what changed things forever.

[Hardtop]

The proper description is no longer liberal but liberal progressive. The progressive movement is what changed things forever.

It's been around fro awhile

[tveye52]

So when Sir Reel repudiated your argument you were persuaded, but when lots of other people said the same thing you were not persuaded? Sir Reel is obviously is very persuasive.

I posted data that indicated other professions made less than doctors. I didn't thing that SirReel tried to contradict that.

Other "arguments" that have been directed at me in this thread:
-What a tool.
-Go pound sand. Hope you don't hurt yourself.
-The ignorance gets on my nerves.
-Why are you wasting your time debating with the clueless and ignorant,
-Too hard? Sounds like you aren't smart enough to be a doctor.

No one has really tried to refute my basic points:
-Doctors make more than the other traditional professions of Accounting, Law, Architecture and Engineering
-the 83% poll figure is from a biased and not really a "non-partisan" source.

[tveye52]

My high school aged son had some friends over yesterday and in the process of making some small talk about their upcoming plans (most are applying to college this fall and a couple are starting college) I asked whether kids these days are considering medicine as a profession. They just laughed.

Probably says more about your socioeconomic and educational milieu more than anything else. Of my son's high school friends, according to alumni magazine, 5 are in med school, one in a MD/PhD program at Harvard, one joined the Air Force to pay for Drexel Med School. 6 are in law school, 4 completed undergrad. engineering, one is working on a Phd on French Romantic painting. This from a graduating class of about 60.

Maybe you kids high school teachers had low expectations or placed low importance on service.