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Topic Review (Newest First)

  • 04-11-2014, 10:02 PM
    BayRat
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyZac View Post
    Yes, the thread title is about pot, but a thread on the Dry Dock isn't legit until it gets sidetracked.

    I'm not taking issue with pot. It's legal, and where it ain't, it will be shortly. The Pot and Gay Marriage battles are over. They're both here to stay.

    What's up next? Libertarians, with this "total freedom" mantra, have put heroin and prostitution on the table (in this thread), so let's have at it.
    Hey, don't knock the oldest profession in the world! It should be legal and regulated as it is in Vegas....but that's another topic for another day too.

    I've never paid for sex, but I won't tell a 75 year old vet that he cant if he wants to! Better legal and safe than going to some street corner disease ridden ho.

    As for my "what's up next" rebuttal, go back a few pages .
  • 04-11-2014, 09:55 PM
    BayRat
    Quote Originally Posted by char-sea cap View Post
    Wow, thanks for that very vague statement our gov. put out after spending billions of dollars on the study. Words like "suspected" and "unknown" make me happy to pay my taxes so we can come up with these solid as a rock conclusions!

    Now find me the same crap about any other legal drugs named above.
  • 04-11-2014, 09:38 PM
    char-sea cap
    Quote Originally Posted by BayRat View Post
    The government has been trying for decades or more to determine the long term health risks of weed and have come up empty.

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001143.htm
  • 04-11-2014, 09:37 PM
    JoeyZac
    Quote Originally Posted by BayRat View Post
    Again and again and again, this thread is about pot...and I've said again and again heroin is a completely different subject. I think we agree on most things in this thread, now move over and make room for me on your fence!
    Yes, the thread title is about pot, but a thread on the Dry Dock isn't legit until it gets sidetracked.

    I'm not taking issue with pot. It's legal, and where it ain't, it will be shortly. The Pot and Gay Marriage battles are over. They're both here to stay.

    What's up next? Libertarians, with this "total freedom" mantra, have put heroin and prostitution on the table (in this thread), so let's have at it.
  • 04-11-2014, 09:17 PM
    BayRat
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyZac View Post
    Another topic, yes, but again (again and again and again and again), I believe I have said many times I have no issue AT ALL with pot being used by the medical industry.

    So if you look at my responses carefully, what are we disagreeing on? Whether or not heroin should be legal? Whether or not insurance should cover accidents?

    I think I'm being very logical and reasonable in saying that society should take care of accidents, and not condone things like heroin.

    Again and again and again, this thread is about pot...and I've said again and again heroin is a completely different subject. I think we agree on most things in this thread, now move over and make room for me on your fence!
  • 04-11-2014, 09:11 PM
    BayRat
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyZac View Post
    ...That said, are you SURE that SMOKING week is less harmful to my body than taking percosets for a week (something I've done twice, for ski related knee injuries)?...
    I'm as sure as you are. The government has been trying for decades or more to determine the long term health risks of weed and have come up empty. Sure, SMOKING anything can't be great for your lungs if you are doing it 24/7 but studies show your lungs can handle it in moderation. If it were legal you could more easily get it in cookies or whatever and EAT it though. Percs on the other hand....well, just look at the fine print. Even low usage can cause liver damage among MANY other things....I'd rather lose my right arm than my liver . That is why I won't even take Tylenol or the like.
  • 04-11-2014, 09:01 PM
    BayRat
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyZac View Post
    ...

    But, smoking and drug use........... Those are two things to me that are not necessary, not normal, easy to avoid, and just flat out stupid. Yes, I'm saying that everyone who smokes, including my fellow Barners, are doing a stupid thing. Doesn't make them stupid in all they do, but smoking is stupid. You're killing yourself, and I don't want to pay for it.
    ....
    I've been trying to quit smoking cigs for quite some time....when the "time is right" I will. Smoking cigs DOES make me stupid and I'll be the first to admit that. But...certain drug use is not stupid if it causes your body less harm than the alternative. Weed or: lithium, morphine, xanax, ambien, etc or even liver killing Tylenol and Alieve..., not to mention all the cancer drugs, MS drugs and every other "doesn't do a damn thing but 'maybe' make you feel a little better but kills you slowly anyway" drugs. That decision should be up to me.
  • 04-11-2014, 09:00 PM
    JoeyZac
    Quote Originally Posted by char-sea cap View Post
    "It’s perfectly acceptable to legislate morality. When you think about it, morals are the only thing you can legislate. For example, we have laws against stealing for one reason: it’s immoral to take someone’s property. So, we take that moral rule and establish it in law.

    The same is true for laws against murder. The reason they exist is because we think it’s immoral to kill an innocent human being. So, we take that moral rule and make it against the law to break it. By legislating that rule, we are legislating morality.

    In fact, it’s the moral rule that legitimizes the law’s power to limit freedom. Without a moral grounding, laws would be unjust. They would be the raw use of power to get what someone wants, not to do what’s right. That’s called tyranny."

    But the argument is that stealing and murder hurst others, while smoking pot in your room after work hurts no one. It's not the same thing.
  • 04-11-2014, 08:59 PM
    JoeyZac
    Quote Originally Posted by BayRat View Post
    If I happen to overdose on weed, which is pretty much impossible, the health insurance I pay for will take care of it. How many skiing deaths/injuries a year are there again? Weed?

    What's kind funny about this thread is that I keep dragging the conversation to legalization of heroin, which I feel is a catastrophe, and you guys keep dragging it back to weed, which again, I don't think I have stated I have a problem with.

    Now lets say you hurt your back skiing, or break a leg...whatever, which is very plausible. You go to the doctor and he prescribes you morphine/percocets/Xanax on top of the huge hospital bill. I'm paying for that through MY health insurance premiums so your insurance can cover it, - Yes. I have no problem with society and insurance "balancing out" accidents. and weed would probably help you much more, and certainly harm you much less, and be LESS ADDICTIVE... - Again, I'm not sure I've lobbied against weed. That said, are you SURE that SMOKING week is less harmful to my body than taking percosets for a week (something I've done twice, for ski related knee injuries)? and as far as I know weed is NOT covered by most insurances even when legal medicinally...so the more people self medicating the more money YOU and I both save.

    My friend with MS pays over $2000 a month for her meds...that is what her insurance doesn't cover...imagine what it DOES cover. Well, her meds make her sick...lets just say she comes over my house for "real" medication more often than not, and she feels MUCH better than when taking the prescribed shots. Does that make me a drug dealer even though I make no money off that?....'nother topic for another day.
    Another topic, yes, but again (again and again and again and again), I believe I have said many times I have no issue AT ALL with pot being used by the medical industry.

    So if you look at my responses carefully, what are we disagreeing on? Whether or not heroin should be legal? Whether or not insurance should cover accidents?

    I think I'm being very logical and reasonable in saying that society should take care of accidents, and not condone things like heroin.
  • 04-11-2014, 08:57 PM
    char-sea cap
    "Itís perfectly acceptable to legislate morality. When you think about it, morals are the only thing you can legislate. For example, we have laws against stealing for one reason: itís immoral to take someoneís property. So, we take that moral rule and establish it in law.

    The same is true for laws against murder. The reason they exist is because we think itís immoral to kill an innocent human being. So, we take that moral rule and make it against the law to break it. By legislating that rule, we are legislating morality.

    In fact, itís the moral rule that legitimizes the lawís power to limit freedom. Without a moral grounding, laws would be unjust. They would be the raw use of power to get what someone wants, not to do whatís right. Thatís called tyranny."

  • 04-11-2014, 08:48 PM
    BayRat
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyZac View Post
    I know this isn't addressed to me, but I just can't help myself.

    If I break a leg skiing, the health insurance I pay for takes care of me. ......
    If I happen to overdose on weed, which is pretty much impossible, the health insurance I pay for will take care of it. How many skiing deaths/injuries a year are there again? Weed?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyZac View Post
    Now, if I break my leg skiing, go into depression, lose my job, become a loser, start drugs, lose my home, wind up on the street, then look to everyone else's tax dollars to care for me because I've allowed myself to just become a loser, then NO, you shouldn't have to pay for that.

    I agree . Sounds like a Comcast commercial: "Don't wind up on the street".

    Now lets say you hurt your back skiing, or break a leg...whatever, which is very plausible. You go to the doctor and he prescribes you morphine/percocets/Xanax on top of the huge hospital bill. I'm paying for that through MY health insurance premiums so your insurance can cover it, and weed would probably help you much more, and certainly harm you much less, and be LESS ADDICTIVE...and as far as I know weed is NOT covered by most insurances even when legal medicinally...so the more people self medicating the more money YOU and I both save.

    My friend with MS pays over $2000 a month for her meds...that is what her insurance doesn't cover...imagine what it DOES cover. Well, her meds make her sick...lets just say she comes over my house for "real" medication more often than not, and she feels MUCH better than when taking the prescribed shots. Does that make me a drug dealer even though I make no money off that?....'nother topic for another day.
  • 04-11-2014, 08:46 PM
    JoeyZac
    Too much to address, so I'll focus on the statements you highlighted.

    Quote Originally Posted by lunatic View Post
    .........Why are you so obsessed with your opposition of spending a couple of pennies on drug addicts while you pay trillions for all other knuckleheads? ..............

    I think that you and everybody else who is against legalization of something like drugs or prostitution is simply pushing for legislating of morality.

    Breaking a leg while skiing is an accident.
    Eating healthy is very hard to do.
    Exercising takes a lot of effort, and time.

    Smoking is INTENTIONAL.
    Drug use is INTENTIONAL.

    Being obese is tough. It's not intentional, but it's not to hard to avoid. I'd call that "negligent," and put it somewhere in the middle.

    I can understand society as a whole balancing out the medical needs of everyone being somewhat normal, moral, and responsible, including accidents, and taking into account how hard it can be to exercise and eat right. Some people have great genes, some have not so great genes, and that's just something society as a whole imo should deal with.

    But, smoking and drug use........... Those are two things to me that are not necessary, not normal, easy to avoid, and just flat out stupid. Yes, I'm saying that everyone who smokes, including my fellow Barners, are doing a stupid thing. Doesn't make them stupid in all they do, but smoking is stupid. You're killing yourself, and I don't want to pay for it.

    As for your second bolded point, I'm still not sure I have said that pot should be illegal. I have said heroin should be, because of it's highly addictive nature. And I'm pretty sure the only thing I've said about prostitution is that I don't want it readily available on every street corner. Don't think I've said a thing about it being illegal, period. Have I been saying what you think I have been saying, or are some people so eager to fight with me that they're not really cluing in to what I've been saying all along?
  • 04-11-2014, 08:29 PM
    lunatic
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyZac View Post
    I know this isn't addressed to me, but I just can't help myself.



    If I break a leg skiing, the health insurance I pay for takes care of me. If the health industry as a whole "balances things out," and technically your rates are a little higher to compensate for people like me that got hurt, well, that's too bad. My car insurance is higher because of the tickets you got as a moron teenager. And if you don't have tickets, somewhere in your past, you've got something else. An illness, a bankruptcy, something. That's life.

    Now, if I break my leg skiing, go into depression, lose my job, become a loser, start drugs, lose my home, wind up on the street, then look to everyone else's tax dollars to care for me because I've allowed myself to just become a loser, then NO, you shouldn't have to pay for that.
    That’s alot of ifs in your statement JZ. The reality is this: if you get injured seriously your care will far exceed what you paid into the system. If you had no insurance it will also cost the system and both you and I know there are many people without insurance. If it happens, the cost is passed onto other people who pay for insurance and did not engage in hockey playing, like I do, or skiing like you do . Even worse than my and your activities are people who simply don’t live the healthy life style. Eat garbage, don’t exercise, drink and smoke. They use up the money they paid into the system in one year. Bypass surgeries, hypertension meds, diabetes followed by amputations of their legs and then arms and so on. The cost of caring for hockey players and people who just don’t care to be healthy by FAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR exceed what you will ever pay for rehabilitation of drug addicts. I gave you some statistics before, where there are more deaths and injuries from one single recreational activity like skiing than you have from drugs. That’s one single, unnecessary to sustain life activity. Why are you so obsessed with your opposition of spending a couple of pennies on drug addicts while you pay trillions for all other knuckleheads? If you broke your neck skiing, would you be ok if we cut you off once we used up the money you already paid into the system?, which BTW would be about one year?
    And keep in mind one more thing: If you made drugs legal tomorrow you would end up with +- $34,000,000,000/year you are currently spending on the already lost War On Drugs. I think its considerably more!
    I think that you and everybody else who is against legalization of something like drugs or prostitution is simply pushing for legislating of morality.

  • 04-11-2014, 07:37 PM
    JoeyZac
    I know this isn't addressed to me, but I just can't help myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by lunatic View Post
    Ok then, do you also have a problem with paying for injuries of people engaging in unnecessary, dangerous but legal recreational activities? Motorcycle riding, skiing, mountain climbing, hunting, fishing, drinking alcohol, overeating or not eating healthy?...............
    If I break a leg skiing, the health insurance I pay for takes care of me. If the health industry as a whole "balances things out," and technically your rates are a little higher to compensate for people like me that got hurt, well, that's too bad. My car insurance is higher because of the tickets you got as a moron teenager. And if you don't have tickets, somewhere in your past, you've got something else. An illness, a bankruptcy, something. That's life.

    Now, if I break my leg skiing, go into depression, lose my job, become a loser, start drugs, lose my home, wind up on the street, then look to everyone else's tax dollars to care for me because I've allowed myself to just become a loser, then NO, you shouldn't have to pay for that.
  • 04-11-2014, 07:28 PM
    lunatic
    Quote Originally Posted by insanityrunningwild View Post
    Great principle. Now let's apply it equally accross the board. When A fails out of school becausse of drugs and winds up in the gutter, we will not impinge on B's freedom by taking away his hard earned money in order to support A. And if we were going to apply the prinicple completely fairly, we would say that we will never impinge on anyone's liberty by confiscating their hard earned money in order to support others. Everyone pays an equal amount toward government to fund only that which only government can do. Otherwise, everyone is left to enjoy their liberty.
    Ok then, do you also have a problem with paying for injuries of people engaging in unnecessary, dangerous but legal recreational activities? Motorcycle riding, skiing, mountain climbing, hunting, fishing, drinking alcohol, overeating or not eating healthy? (see my post below)


    If its about money then please understand two things: What you are paying for the never ending and already lost war on drugs dwarfs anything you could ever spent on drug treatment for the drug addicts. It is like comparing a continent to an ant. In addition, our government does very little when it comes to their treatment and most pay, or donít get any.
    Do you also have a problem with paying for injuries of people engaging in unnecessary, dangerous but legal recreational activities? Motorcycle riding, skiing, mountain climbing, hunting, fishing, drinking alcohol, overeating or not eating healthy? remember: "Liberty not only means that the individual has both the opportunity and the burden of choice; it also means that he must bear the consequences of his actions Ö Liberty and responsibility are inseparable."


    Here is your war on drugs clock. Just take a look and see for yourself how much it costs:

    http://www.drugsense.org/cms/wodclock




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