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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I don't know how accurate the info is, but a friend of mine told me he has a comm friend who supposedly has been out sea bassing (out of NJ) and that they're allowed 1000 lbs. I figured maybe bycatch, but supposedly they are targeting them. I thought comm season closed shortly after ours was closed last year and did not reopen. Anyone know?
 

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I think it is still open because they never caught their quota. I THINK they are limited to 1 landing(trip) per week at 1000lb trip limit OR they could also have two landings in a week at 500lbs per landing. However, like I said as far as I know their quota has not been filled and having to run 50 to 70 miles to pot sea bass in winter it probably won't be filled as it isn't all that worth it for the small trip limits that are imposed.
 

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I beleive that even during the closed season, the Comms may posess 500 lbs per trip or 1000lbs per week bycatch. So I wouldn't say it is ever really closed...
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I think it is still open because they never caught their quota. I THINK they are limited to 1 landing(trip) per week at 1000lb trip limit OR they could also have two landings in a week at 500lbs per landing. However, like I said as far as I know their quota has not been filled and having to run 50 to 70 miles to pot sea bass in winter it probably won't be filled as it isn't all that worth it for the small trip limits that are imposed.
2010 quota? Didn't the emergency closure apply to both comms and recs? Is there a separate bycatch quota? Seems we (recs) should be allowed a bycatch quota as well. I was also told that they guys were fishing rod and reel, not pots (not that it really matters).

Hearing this, if true, doesn't sit right with me. I can understand allowing bycatch, but they're out there supposedly targeting bsb to fill that allowable "bycatch". Maybe it's just bad/partial info that I received and I obviously know very little about the comm regs, so I shouldn't get so worked up about it...
 

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bsb trip limits

right now the commercial black sea bass trip limit is 500 lbs 4 times a week OR 1,000 lbs 2 times a week. The NJ commercial black sea bass fishery works off a set annual quota allocated over 4 seasons. Jan 1. to April 15, April 16 to June 30, July 1 to Sept 30 and Oct 1 to Dec 31. NJ fishermen can land a total of 218,638 pounds in 2010 in NJ, during this first season they are allocated 76,348 lbs. Once the seasonal allocation is caught, comms are shut down except for the bycatch trip limits which are 100 pounds from January 1 through March 31 and 50 pounds from April 1 through December 31.
 

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right now the commercial black sea bass trip limit is 500 lbs 4 times a week OR 1,000 lbs 2 times a week. The NJ commercial black sea bass fishery works off a set annual quota allocated over 4 seasons. Jan 1. to April 15, April 16 to June 30, July 1 to Sept 30 and Oct 1 to Dec 31. NJ fishermen can land a total of 218,638 pounds in 2010 in NJ, during this first season they are allocated 76,348 lbs. Once the seasonal allocation is caught, comms are shut down except for the bycatch trip limits which are 100 pounds from January 1 through March 31 and 50 pounds from April 1 through December 31.
Good info...thank you.
 

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2010 quota? Didn't the emergency closure apply to both comms and recs? Is there a separate bycatch quota? Seems we (recs) should be allowed a bycatch quota as well. I was also told that they guys were fishing rod and reel, not pots (not that it really matters).

Hearing this, if true, doesn't sit right with me. I can understand allowing bycatch, but they're out there supposedly targeting bsb to fill that allowable "bycatch". Maybe it's just bad/partial info that I received and I obviously know very little about the comm regs, so I shouldn't get so worked up about it...
Red, I just posted this on another thread, so I copied and pasted...

Sea bass are in the same boat(as fluke)...fully rebuilt fishery, not overfished, overfishing not occurring, and we're closed out of it. Why? Because good ol' Uncle Sam says that we've overfished our quota substantially. So substantially that we only have access to the fishery for two lousy months in 2010. Again, how'd they come up with the number of sea bass that the rec fleet caught? People think that we're closed out of sea bass because the government thinks there aren't any...not the case.

Finally, people wonder why the commercial pot boats and such can still target them. That's because the state's quota is divided between the commercial and recreational fleet and treated as two separate things. I will say that the numbers of fish taken commercially is much more accurately tracked as each fish that crossed the dock at a dealer is accounted for. They know when they've reached their quota. They haven't caught their sea bass quota, and probably won't.
 

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data collection

One significant difference between the commercial and recreational industries is the way landings data are collected. Commercially, the state knows exactly who the stake holders are. In other words, everyone of them is permitted and licensed to fish, therefore the state is able to collect accurate landings data though vessel trip reports and dealer reports. Black sea bass requires the vessel to hold a state and federal permit to fish in federal waters and a state permit to fish in NJ waters (0-3 nm).

Recreationally, no one knows what the "true" landings are since the only data collection on a whole is from the fatally flawed MRFS (marine recreational fisheries survey). True charter and party boats are completing and submitting a federal vessel trip report in most cases, however the largest bulk of recreational fishermen never really are represented. The most logical solution to this dilema is the saltwater registry and future saltwater license. If we as recreational anglers really want the best possible management and representation, support the NJ saltwater fishing license.

While the commercial fishery may not always like the way NJ manages the fisheries, they can say that the data collected and use is as accurate as the data the industry provides the state.

I think that if we support a NJ Saltwater License, we as recreational anglers will see a vast improvement in the way NJ can manage the recreational fisheries. We will no longer be held to coastwide generalizations that likely don't apply to the state of NJ but are based on some huge regional area.
 

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One significant difference between the commercial and recreational industries is the way landings data are collected. Commercially, the state knows exactly who the stake holders are. In other words, everyone of them is permitted and licensed to fish, therefore the state is able to collect accurate landings data though vessel trip reports and dealer reports. Black sea bass requires the vessel to hold a state and federal permit to fish in federal waters and a state permit to fish in NJ waters (0-3 nm).

Recreationally, no one knows what the "true" landings are since the only data collection on a whole is from the fatally flawed MRFS (marine recreational fisheries survey). True charter and party boats are completing and submitting a federal vessel trip report in most cases, however the largest bulk of recreational fishermen never really are represented. The most logical solution to this dilema is the saltwater registry and future saltwater license. If we as recreational anglers really want the best possible management and representation, support the NJ saltwater fishing license.

While the commercial fishery may not always like the way NJ manages the fisheries, they can say that the data collected and use is as accurate as the data the industry provides the state.

I think that if we support a NJ Saltwater License, we as recreational anglers will see a vast improvement in the way NJ can manage the recreational fisheries. We will no longer be held to coastwide generalizations that likely don't apply to the state of NJ but are based on some huge regional area.
Right...people want better data and no license...not going to happen. To get better data we need a license...simple as that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
minglewood, thank you for that info.

Adam, I saw that thread and I agree with you. This whole thing flat out sucks. I'm sure the comm guys may be saying the same thing.

I wonder how the current 2010 comm quota compares to the 2009 comm quota and how it compares to our 2010 rec quota and proposed season(which will hopefully be increased after that decision a couple of weeks back...now I guess we're waiting on pat kurkel/nmfs).
 

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I stand corrected, BUT see the bold. it says 100lbs per trip per this gov doc.

http://www.ncfisheries.net/procs/procs2k9/FF-7-2009.html



RE: BLACK SEA BASS – COMMERCIAL FISHING OPERATIONS – ATLANTIC OCEAN
Dr. Louis B. Daniel III, Director, Division of Marine Fisheries, hereby announces that effective at 12:01 A.M., Friday, January 16, 2009, the following restrictions shall apply to the commercial black sea bass fishery north of Cape Hatteras (35° 15.3’N. Latitude):
SIZE LIMIT
It is unlawful to possess black sea bass less than 11 inches total length north of Cape Hatteras. Total length shall be measured along the lateral midline from the tip of the nose to the tip tail, excluding the caudal fin filament.
HARVEST LIMITS
A. During the period beginning at 12:01 A.M., Friday, January 16, 2009 and ending at 6:00 P.M., Friday, January 30, 2009, no commercial trawl, fish pot or hook and line fishing operation, regardless of the number of people involved, may have total landings of more than 5,000 pounds of black sea bass taken from the Atlantic Ocean north of Cape Hatteras. The Atlantic Ocean black sea bass fishery will close immediately after the Director issues a public notice that the quota of black sea bass has been landed from the Atlantic Ocean north of Cape Hatteras, or at 6:00 P.M., January 30, 2009, whichever occurs first.

B. During any closed season, vessels may land up to 100 pounds of black sea bass per trip taken from the Atlantic Ocean.
III. GEAR RESTRICTIONS

FISH TRAPS/POTS:
Black sea bass pots or traps must conform with the Federal rule requirements for escape vents specified in 50 CFR 648.144 (b)(2) and for degradable fasteners specified in 50 CFR 648.144 (b)(3)(i), (ii) and (iii). (See Section IV.H).
IV. PERMITS
A. Finfish dealers may not buy more than 100 pounds of black sea bass caught north of Cape Hatteras per day per commercial fishing operation unless the dealer has a valid 2009 Black Sea Bass – North of Cape Hatteras Dealer Permit from the North Carolina Division of Marine Fisheries. Permits will be issued only to those licensed fish dealers holding a valid license as authorized in G.S. 113-169.3. Dealers must abide by all conditions of the 2009 Black Sea Bass-North of Cape Hatteras Dealer Permit as set out in Proclamation FF-70-2008, dated October 29, 2008.
B. Dealers possessing a 2009 Black Sea Bass – North of Cape Hatteras Dealer Permit shall report daily by noon through FAX transmittal (252-726-3903) to the Division of Marine Fisheries black sea bass landings from the Atlantic Ocean for the previous day.

V. GENERAL INFORMATION
A. This proclamation is issued under the authority of N.C.G.S. 113-134; 113- 170.4; 113-170.5; 113-182;113-221.1; 143B-289.52 and N.C. Marine Fisheries Rules 15A NCAC 3M .0506 and .0512 and 3O. 0501.
B. It is unlawful to violate the provisions of any proclamation issued by the Fisheries Director under his delegated authority pursuant to N.C. Marine Fisheries Rule 15A NCAC 3H .0103.
C. The landing prohibition beginning at 6:00 P.M. on January 30, 2009 will allow the Division to review landing reports.
D. For the purposes of this proclamation, fish shall be considered landed when fish are unloaded or the vessel is tied to the dock, whichever occurs first.
E. Marine Fisheries Rule 15A NCAC 3I .0113 specifies that it is unlawful for any licensee under Chapter 113, Subchapter IV of the General Statutes to refuse to allow the Fisheries Director or his agents to obtain biological data, harvest information, or other statistical data necessary or useful to the conservation and management of marine and estuarine resources from fish in the licensees possession.
F. Federal regulations for Fisheries of the Northeastern United States specify in 50 CFR Part 648.4(a)(7) that “any vessel of the United States that fishes for or retains black sea bass in or from the EEZ north of 35°15.3’ N. lat., the latitude of Cape Hatteras Light, NC, must have been issued and carry on board a valid black sea bass moratorium permit, except for vessels other than party or charter vessels that observe the possession limit established pursuant to §648.145.”
G. The intent of this proclamation is to allow North Carolina to comply with the requirements of the joint Mid-Atlantic Fisheries Management Council-Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission Summer Flounder, Scup and Black Sea Bass Fisheries Management Plan (FMP) and to manage the commercial black sea bass fishery under the state quota system established by the FMP. North Carolina is operating under a state quota and these trip limits and harvest periods are intended to constrain the harvest to the quota.
H. The minimum size limit for black sea bass south of Cape Hatteras remains 10 inches in total length for commercial purposes.
I. Copies of escape vent specifications for black sea bass pots north of Cape Hatteras are available via the Federal Register posted on the Internet at www.nero.nmfs.gov/ro/doc/the648.htm and from the Division of Marine Fisheries, P.O. Box 769, Morehead City, NC 28557.



January 13, 2009
1:15 P.M.
FF-7-2009
/sab
 

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Bear13;

First, that language is in regards to North Carolina not NJ. North Carlina may elect to manage their fishery differently than NJ and does so.

Second, the bold section" B. During any closed season, vessels may land up to 100 pounds of black sea bass per trip taken from the Atlantic Ocean" is refferring to the open or directed season v. the closed or bycatch season. During the Directed (open) season, North Carolina fishers are able to land a directed trip limit of 500 pounds.

Third, this exerpt from NC is for the 2009 seasons and quatas for BSB. Here's the link for 2010.http://www.ncfisheries.net/procs/procs2k10/FF-18-2010.html
 

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One significant difference between the commercial and recreational industries is the way landings data are collected. Commercially, the state knows exactly who the stake holders are. In other words, everyone of them is permitted and licensed to fish, therefore the state is able to collect accurate landings data though vessel trip reports and dealer reports. Black sea bass requires the vessel to hold a state and federal permit to fish in federal waters and a state permit to fish in NJ waters (0-3 nm).

Recreationally, no one knows what the "true" landings are since the only data collection on a whole is from the fatally flawed MRFS (marine recreational fisheries survey). True charter and party boats are completing and submitting a federal vessel trip report in most cases, however the largest bulk of recreational fishermen never really are represented. The most logical solution to this dilema is the saltwater registry and future saltwater license. If we as recreational anglers really want the best possible management and representation, support the NJ saltwater fishing license.

While the commercial fishery may not always like the way NJ manages the fisheries, they can say that the data collected and use is as accurate as the data the industry provides the state.

I think that if we support a NJ Saltwater License, we as recreational anglers will see a vast improvement in the way NJ can manage the recreational fisheries. We will no longer be held to coastwide generalizations that likely don't apply to the state of NJ but are based on some huge regional area.
VERY WELL SAID:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: I AGREE 100000000%:D
 

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I wonder how the current 2010 comm quota compares to the 2009 comm quota and how it compares to our 2010 rec quota and proposed season(which will hopefully be increased after that decision a couple of weeks back...now I guess we're waiting on pat kurkel/nmfs).
It is exactly the same, just like the recreational quota. When the Council sets the TAC/TAL they set it for commercial and recreational. Recreationals receive 51% of the sea bass quota, commercials receive 49%. The "season" for commercials is different for every state, it depends on how their quota is split up by their state. In NJ the "season" for winter 1 is from Jan.1 to April 15, or whenever the quota is caught for that period. In all likelihood the quota for jan/feb/mar/apr 15 will be caught by the end of next week, which means no more directed sea bass fishery in NJ until mid-april and the process starts all over again for the next period. The winter Fluke season for NJ commercial already closed after only a week or two. They fish until their pounds are landed.

In the case of sea bass their bycatch amount(10%) is set aside from their quota BEFORE they start fishing the directed fishery.

To those who asked about the closure, the emergency closure had nothing to do with the commercial fishery. The closure also had nothing to do with the health of the stock. The recreational fishery was closed because NMFS claimed we had exceeded our 2009 target by x amount of fish. So, they shut it down.

The NJ commercial season in 2009 was shut down in October because the quota in NJ for that period had been caught. The season reopened on Jan. 1 in 2010 because that is a new quota (but one the same size as last year just like recreationals)

Bear13, the regs posted before (100lb and 50lb) are the bycatch of seabass for commercials in NJ, and before the commercials can start fishing on their sea bass quota 10% of it is deducted and put aside for bycatch, so the bycatch amounts are part of their original quota, not above and beyond.
 

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CAPT TB-

So the real issue is how they determine that the recs have caught the 51% of the total?

How will the license (or registry) provide any data other than the true number of fishermen? Isnt the catch number what they need? What happens if they figure out that recs only take 25% of the seabass instead of 51%? Do we get increased seasons and better limits, or will the other 26% just disappear?

Also, if the registry/license is mandatory how does it account for the guy who fishes one day a year on a friends boat with his kid? Are they assigned a "full share" of catch liability towards the TAC/TAL? Is each registered or licensed fisherman assumed to catch a certain number of fish of certain species?

I honestly dont believe that the recreational impact is anywhere close to the commercial impact on a given fishery. There may be "millions" of recreational fishermen, but I would bet that a small percentage of them fish with any regularity and when they do they are not successful, either because the release most fish, or the fish dont meet regs or they dont catch anything.
 

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That's why the info is "fatally flawed" there is no way to accurately estimate the "Rec" catch in any species> They take small samples and apply it to the whole fishery and can skew the # any way they want. If they have an anti fishing viewpoint, and I believe they do, they can close the fishery. I'd like to think that a registry or licence would improve it but I'm not sure that it can. We need to protect the resources but we "rec fishermen" need protection too for we are going to be on the endangered list and I garantee no one will fight for our cause.
 

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..........I garantee no one will fight for our cause.
WE can fight for it at the voting booth, and by joining/supporting ($$$) org like the RFA and SSFFF.

If we were really smart, we'd organize and start a campaign where we can track which major companies (Penn, Shimano, etc) "fight for our cause" and then support them and exclude the others. With all the money those companies make off us, there's no reason they shouldn't be the ones leading the charge.

It would be great to know if which major companies have supported the SSFFF and RFA. The rally later this month is another area they could show support.

Are they doing anything at all except making money off of us? :huh:
 

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It is not the Recs that are totally un regulated. I personally seen a boat an several occasions pulling traps that were full of small sea bass.

Seen it a couple times this year. So, you can't say it is just recs that go unregulated.

The only info tracked is the info reported. The Comms saying they only keep what the limits allow I assume is like the Recs saying, we never tie to pots... it is fair to say that not all recs and comms are alike though too. Like each, the other, we are different.

However, the fact that I see so many pots around wrecks, in the middle of summer makes me uneasy figuring there's things going on.

That doc I posted was for North Atlantic, I understand though the Nj can be different. One thing I will agree with is that you Comms gents need to have law degree to figure out the who's and whats.. it seem that confusion is almost intentional.
 
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