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Summer Flounder fisherman ,bend over

2208 Views 79 Replies 27 Participants Last post by  underdog
I attended the Mid Atlantic Council meeting tonite and they voted on the 2006 allotment
After some strong arguments by JCAA,RFA, and United Boatman and some from Jersey reps they voted and passed an admendment that reduces the catch for 2006 to 23.59 lbs DOWN from 30 million lbs in 2005
NOW ,(tomorrow Wed) the ASMFC will decide what the new regulations will be.
The whole process needs to be redone in my opinion as currently they are not paying any attention to ecomonic impact
Stay tuned
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I sent 8 emails under my name and borrowed a couple more people at work's emails. I tried each and every arguement. Polite and upset, plain ol pissed, economic impact angle........and so on....

We as rec. fishermen aren't mobilized enough I guess. We need like a 1000 fishermen to descend on Trump and start chanting!!!! And when they talk get louder, then 1 by 1, each of us talk our piece. On another post I was asking why fishing clubs don't get together and make an outing of going to these meetings. If 10 guys from each club went or more, it would be excellent.
I sent 8 emails under my name and borrowed a couple more people at work's emails. I tried each and every arguement. Polite and upset, plain ol pissed, economic impact angle........and so on....

We as rec. fishermen aren't mobilized enough I guess. We need like a 1000 fishermen to descend on Trump and start chanting!!!! And when they talk get louder, then 1 by 1, each of us talk our piece. On another post I was asking why fishing clubs don't get together and make an outing of going to these meetings. If 10 guys from each club went or more, it would be helpful.
As the limits on the fisheries continue along with the higher costs associated with the sport I can imagine when a time will come when each of us may ask "Whats the Point" or "Why Bother" or "Why not Blowboating instead(well maybe not this one)" and take those entertainment dollars and put them somewhere else. Imagine the economic impact to marinas boat dealers bait shops charter boats etc and the trickle down effect since they wont have $$ to spend on other things.

I did not travel 30+ miles to catch 1 bluefin tuna this year. However I did travel between 12-25 miles to catch fluke. If it goes to 4 per angler I certainly wont go as often unless I bring some ballast fisherpeople(My kids).
Catch & Release fluking doesnt excite me as much as light tackle bluefishing-but I dont target them until the fall run when they are closer.

[ 12-07-2005, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Spooled ]
Read in the AC Press today that it won't affect the rec fisherman only the commercials. If I can get the link, I will post it.
Originally posted by Capt Lew:
Read in the AC Press today that it won't affect the rec fisherman only the commercials. If I can get the link, I will post it.
I read the same thing, almost a complete 180. WTF ??

Don't know what it means, but the back bay fishing has sucked for many years now, but you can still fill a box at the inshore reefs as many old-timers know. Does that mean anything ??
Saw the Press thing too. A little confusing info coming out of different places....go figure.
Originally posted by Capt Lew:
Read in the AC Press today that it won't affect the rec fisherman only the commercials. If I can get the link, I will post it.
??? Strange :confused:
Panel cuts flounder quota for next year
By MICHAEL PRITCHARD Staff Writer, (609) 272-7256
Published: Wednesday, December 7, 2005
Updated: Wednesday, December 7, 2005

ATLANTIC CITY-A reduction of the quota of summer flounder that can be caught off the Atlantic Coast could hurt New Jersey's commercial fishermen, but recreational fishermen - who did not catch their entire assigned quota this year - should see little difference in limits.

That was the conclusion of state delegates to the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission on Tuesday after the federal government was able to convince the commission to cut the Atlantic flounder take to 23.59 million pounds, down from 30 million pounds last year.

The entire quota is split among 10 Atlantic seaboard states, which can set their own size and bag limits for recreational fishing. Since recreational fisherman did not catch the full quota assigned to New Jersey last year, it is unlikely current limits will need to be changed, officials said.

Commercial fishermen, however, almost always catch their entire quota and will see a reduction in the amount they can catch.

The commission voted to reduce the quota Tuesday despite objections from several fishing groups who wanted to see a higher quota of 26 million pounds that would stay constant for at least three years. The commission's vote, however, only sets the quota for next year.

Pat Kurkel, regional administrator for the National Marine Fisheries Service, told the commission that the cut was needed because flounder stocks are not recovering at the pace expected and the move has to be made to meet target levels for flounder set for 2010.

"We have a fishery that has been overfished in the past and it is being overfished again," she said. "The amount of fish is lower than we had thought and the amount of fish mortality is higher than we thought. This move is difficult, but it needs to be made."

Kurkel said the service might be forced to close the fisheries after 23.59 million pounds was reached to protect the flounder even if the commission set a higher quota.

Many members of the commission, which includes 10 Atlantic states, felt that the government's stance undercut the commission's authority.

"It makes you wonder what we are here for," said Ed Goldman, of Absecon, a New Jersey delegate to the commission. "I mean we just voted for a low this quota because they hope we will be able to set a higher quota in 2007. Well, I hope there is more fish next year too, but there are no guarantees."

The New Jersey delegates supported a plan that would have set the quota at 26 million pounds for the next three years. That plan, called "constant harvest," was projected to allow the flounder stock to meet approved levels (about 204 million pounds) by 2010.

Not only would that plan set a slightly higher quota this year, it would also provide consistency, officials said.

"The thing we are forgetting here is that we serve a lot of people trying to survive in this industry," said Bruce Freeman, of the state Division of Fish and Wildlife and another state delegate. "And the biggest complaint I get from fishermen is that they don't understand what we are doing here. One year we greatly increase the catch. The next year we drastically cut the catch. They can't operate like that. They want to know what the catch will be so they can plan."

But several other commissioners said they did not want to set a quota for the future that could be lower than necessary.

"The problem with the constant harvest approach is that you get a short-term benefit, but you sacrifice any long-term benefits there might be," Kurkel said.

Still, recent studies have shown that the summer flounder stock is not recovering at an expected rate. Current estimates are that the entire amount of flounder off the coast, or biomass, is 121 million pounds, significantly lower than the target of 204 million pounds. The commission had hoped to set a quota of 33 million pounds for 2006 before the new estimates came out.

The commission will now move to discussions on how to achieve the quota, which includes setting catch and size limits, which are then approved by the states. Those figures are tied into how much of the quota is allocated to each state, which is then divided into 60 percent for commercial fisherman and 40 percent for recreational fisherman.

In New Jersey, preliminary estimates show that recreational fishermen are not likely to be affected by the cut.

"Recreational fisherman didn't come close to the quota last year," Goldman said. "Nothing is guaranteed of course, but they shouldn't see much of a change in limits. But now we are going to have to figure out how this will affect commercial fisherman. Those numbers aren't in yet, but I have a feeling they're going to take a hit."

For the fisherman in attendance, of whom many had traveled to be there, the commission meeting proved to be an exercise in frustration.

"Basically the government just jammed what they wanted down the commission's throat," said Bruce Smith of the Jersey Coast Angler's Association, based in Toms River. "And the commission just rolled over. New Jersey fishermen probably aren't going to be hit that badly, but I know a lot of fishermen are going to be hurt by this."
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Originally posted by Bawugna:
I am not even a fluker but have watched how the fishery has become laughable! When I was much younger, we were able to fill a cooler with fluke of all sizes. We tossed many fish simply because they were just not worth cleaning.....much less than 13 inches or so. Then I watched as the regs tightened year after year and the fishery went from "hey we had a good day, dozens" to "Oh Boy we did real good, 6 of us came back with 4 keepers" What the hell is happening here?

Don't blame the commercial guys for the downward spiral we are in right now...............By that I mean, the yearly increase in size limits and correspondingly tighter regs the year that follows. That is because of a lawsuit brought by some enviro wackos with no stake in the fishery trying to make the NMFS follow the rebuilding plan, regardless of how incredibly successful it is. Just to make sure I am not misunderstood....DO blame the commercial fleet for destroying the fishery by raiding the shelf waters and removing all the breeding stock, and DO blame them for the skewed allocation because they had fished us out of the picture and lobbied us out of the process and DO blame the NMFS for being underhanded in the whole scheme :mad:

The 14 inch fluke thing for the commercial fleet does stick in my craw, but I understand the reason...........however, larger mesh would solve a lot of that.

Think about it, this is an inshore fish, that people are traveling 20 miles to catch! :eek: A few more miles and you are catching small BFT and Mako! Oh but you are only allowed one of each of them........... :rolleyes:

The regs are flawed, the allocations are criminal, the catch estimates are just plain dumb! and the weight estimates based on them are even worse!

And people wonder why I don't even waste my time.
Jim can you tell me where we fluke ????? Do you know how far the self is from here ???? Well your at it can you tell me our trip limit this year ? As long as your researchin how much of NJ's quota was taken from the Comm's ?????? I asked you these question due to your second and third paragraph. Seem like you know a lot about draggin fluke. The Mesh size is 6 inch draw a 6'' diamond and tell me what size fish dumps out. Maybe if the fish were 14 inches we would hear the same lame *** story from the market. " The fish are to big they look like crap on a plate " Same thing every Jan 8th. Due to scalloping hardly anybody went fluking this year there is a load of quota not even touched. Plus what is and will be taken away from us.
Fishpicker --you are wrong . I attended both meetings on 6th and 7th
First gear size is 5.5" min diamond mess 6" min sq mesh that is right off the Mid-Atlantic Charts

Second--they reported commercial qouta was MET in 2005

Just to clear up some of the confusion on the reduction to 23.59 lbs from 33lbs
While we won't know until Spring it appears the recreational catch in NJ will not see a reduction as a result of NOT meeting the targeted catch in 2005 and regulations could stay the same
That is the best we could hope for but won't know until WAVE 5 numbers are analayzed
Commercial guys will see a significant cut
The RFA,Untited Boatman and others argued the catch should be 26 mil lbs which with the 2005 under catch could have resulted in some relaxation of regulations. JCAA seem to be absent from the comments to directors but obviously made the newspaper
the whole process is driven by PHD's and Statisicans who don't seem to have any interested in effect on ecomony
Jim, when I first read your post, I thought you were heading down a direction that made me realize something, then read it again, and I jumped to conclusions...what I thought first...

It's not the Rec's fault, nor is it the Comm's fault...so who's fault is it?

As Bucktail keeps saying, IT'S THE PEOPLE RUNNING THE SHOW...it is their fault. 100%

The Comm's and Rec's are taking what we are allowed...nothing more...just wish I could take what is allowed to me...and this is where it falls down...there is hardly anything to take...

Let their group fight their battles, let our group fight ours...and stay outta each others way...we have different agenda's right now...but are fighting towards a common goal and that is to fix the system.
Originally posted by Capt Lew:
Read in the AC Press today that it won't affect the rec fisherman only the commercials. If I can get the link, I will post it.
Not really true even though they said it
Both the rec and comm qouta are being cut by the same amount. Because we were under our qouta last year we likely won't see a change in limits in NJ. If it were not for the cuts though Limits would have be eased this year to account for that. Would have been nice to get back to the 15 inch days.

States that reached their qouta's last year are really screwed.
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Originally posted by BUCKTAIL WILLIE:
Fishpicker --you are wrong . I attended both meetings on 6th and 7th
First gear size is 5.5" min diamond mess 6" min sq mesh that is right off the Mid-Atlantic Charts

Second--they reported commercial qouta was MET in 2005

Just to clear up some of the confusion on the reduction to 23.59 lbs from 33lbs
While we won't know until Spring it appears the recreational catch in NJ will not see a reduction as a result of NOT meeting the targeted catch in 2005 and regulations could stay the same
That is the best we could hope for but won't know until WAVE 5 numbers are analayzed
Commercial guys will see a significant cut
The RFA,Untited Boatman and others argued the catch should be 26 mil lbs which with the 2005 under catch could have resulted in some relaxation of regulations. JCAA seem to be absent from the comments to directors but obviously made the newspaper
the whole process is driven by PHD's and Statisicans who don't seem to have any interested in effect on ecomony
HE DONT KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT
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BOB ECT--exactly what the arguments were on Tuesday. NOAA Fisheries Service is saying the BioMass dropped since last year yet there were more small fish this year than in the last 4o years
This is the direct result of PHD's with Statistical Degrees making decisions on a sample that is entirely too small
In addition their netting data did not take into consideration that the stock during the time of their netting was NOT in the normal spots.
Put both of these together and you have a statistical diaster
The regulations should have been lighten up,not sure 15" would work but even a drop to 16" would have resulted in significant improvement in a fisherman's ability to take a fish home
The ONLY way this nonsense is going to get corrected is take NOAA back to court but it doesn't appear yet that either RFA or JCAA is willing to do it.
The Environmental Groups did have the "guts" and took NOAA to court which is why we are where we are
Second--they reported commercial quota was MET in 2005

2005 isn't over yet it is projected to be landed. But they NJ had to pump up the trip limits in order to get even close to the quota.
Marty,

Sometimes I wonder why you just can't leave well enough alone especially when you make me demonstrate in case after case that what I say comes right out of the Regulatory documentation and Industry news and trade publications.

I suggest that rather than wait for me to do all the exhaustive research AGAIN and dump it out here so you can sidestep it and ask me for more and different stuff, do the research yourself and dump it here.

Facts are:

The historic poundage split was 70-80 rec/20-30 Com.

The Com Fleet found the breeding stock in the shelf waters (very far, to answer your ?) and then netted them relentlessly.

Taking out the breeding stock will make a population collapse.

NMFS set the quota split after the Comm Fleet had made it almost impossible for the Rec fleet to catch a decent poundage.

The quota split was based on those skewed numbers

Comm size limit is 14 inch

Rec Size limit it higher and rediculously so in some areas.

Your mesh question was answered already

I don't care what the trip limit is, I am only concerned with the coastwide total Commercial quota.

To add, again, I don't have to know squat about draggin fluke to understand the regs, the population, the History, and other things that affect the landscape today. You just can't accept that someone who does not fish for a living can make a relatively intelligent argument about certain aspects of the subject.........You seem to always equate everyone with the touchy feely enviro-wackos who really have no clue in most cases. You remind me of a friend of mine who runs our BLDG Maint. unit. We in the Safety Office were seeing all sorts of crazy stuff wrong with scaffolding jobs. We were making inspections and writing reports about the dangers of the scaffold jobs (thankfully no one died) and we even offered to perform training. He asked me when the last time was that I set up a scaffold. I of course said that I hadn't done one before. He told me that because of that, I can't possibly know about setting one up properly. So like a dope I hired a contractor to do the training. What do you think happened? That contractor told him EXACTLY WHAT I HAD SAID EARLIER! The point is, Regs are regs, History is real, and you don't have to take a hands on part in every industry to make intelligent observations.

Bucktail, I think you misread my last sentence.....I have not given up on the fishery nor trying to make changes..........I just don't fish for fluke that is all. I spend my hard earned money and time pursuing the fish that EAT THOSE FLUKE!
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Originally posted by Fishpicker:

2005 isn't over yet it is projected to be landed. But they NJ had to pump up the trip limits in order to get even close to the quota.
That's what I always heard, flounder are being dragged for now, it's easier when they are concentrated, no?..wouldn't be worth it drag'n all over gods creation in the summer..

so if it's not over yet for the year, how the hell is anyone gonna decide anything today!! ?? for either side??

Again, it's only one groups fault right now...damn law makers..
NMFS's detailed economic impact study of the fluke cutbacks

"While it is likely that proposed management measures would restrict the recreational fishery for 2006,and that these measures may cause some decrease in recreational satisfaction, there is no indication that any of these measures may lead to a decline in the demand for party/charter boat trips. The market demand for this sector is relatively stable. Currently, neither behavioral nor demand data are available to estimate how sensitive party/charter boat anglers might be to proposed fishing regulations. It is likely that party/charter anglers will target other species when faced with potential reductions in the amount of summer flounder, scup, and black sea bass that they are allowed to catch."

Fed. Reg., Vol. 70, No. 221, Nov. 17, 2005, at page 69730 .


I really love how they state demand for charter/party boats is stable, then in the very next sentence, state that they have no data to support that theory. Now that's some Gov't Analysis
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I like this better!

It is likely that party/charter anglers will target other species when faced with potential reductions in the amount of summer flounder, scup, and black sea bass that they are allowed to catch."


hahahahahahhahaha, like weakfish? or were they thinking sandsharks and skates? hahahahahahahhah

[ 12-09-2005, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: design ]
I can see the big signs at the marinas now:

1/2 and Full Day Skate Trips
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